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Post by Pacelli on Nov 28, 2016 19:28:37 GMT -5
Some questions have come up, which I will address below. If anyone has any other questions, Vox has been a Ukrainian Catholic all of his life, and I have been on and off with the Ukrainian rite since the early 1990's, so if anyone has more questions or other questions, feel free.
1. Why only the Ukrainian rite for your directory? Why not other eastern rites.
In my experience, the Ukrainian rite is unique even among the eastern rites, in that they have by and large, kept their doctrinal orthodoxy and have maintained their uncorrupted liturgy, resisting all innovations, and in reality going further back in time so as to retreat from all "latinization." While I obviously don't have a problem with "latinization," as it existed in pre-Vatican II times, the Ukrainians through their "delatinization" agenda have kept the Novus Ordo influence for the most part out.
I am not saying that all of the other eastern rites are not good, but I do know the Ukrainians through directly knowing them, and knowing many others who go to them, and I know that by and large they are good and safe place to be in this crisis.
I may also add my opinion that I believe God has blessed the Ukrainians due to their sacrifice in recent years with the blood of their martyrs during the time of Soviet occupation. Countless priests were murdered, and others sent to forced labor camps. The people were oppressed by being denied the sacraments, and having their churches stolen by the so called "orthodox." Even Ukrainian Patrirach Slipyj, a great modern hero of the Faith was imprisoned in the Siberia gulags.
Out of all of these Ukrainian clergy that were shipped away to the gulags many never to lived through it, and could have ended their suffering by compromising their Faith. If they embraced "orthodoxy," they would have been set free, no gulag, no death. But, they did not, they remained strong in their Faith, and endured their suffering in loyalty to Christ and His Church.
2. Are Ukrainians priests infected with ideas from the Conciliar church?
Some might be, but I believe most are not.
3. Are all Ukrainian priests ordained through their own bishops in their own ancient rite?
To the best of my knowledge, yes, but I always encourage due diligence. I have never met or have ever heard of a single case of a Ukrainian priest ordained by a Paul VI rite bishop. I have also never heard of single case of a " Novus Ordo" priest changing to the Ukrainian rite.
If you have any reason to suspect anything, or want some reassurance, just chat (not interrogate) with the priest, they are more than happy to describe their background. You could also find a lot of the ordination information out on the internet.
4. Many eastern Catholic women no longer were veils.
Yes, it's true, but many still do. Let the ladies who grasp the importance of this, set the example for the others.
5. The eastern Catholics no longer say, "and the son" in the Creed, is this not a denial of the Faith.
If their motive was to deny the Faith, then yes, but the eastern Catholics used to use the old form of the creed, the original Apostles Creed, which did not have the phrase, and then adopted it in the 17th century to conform with Rome. As part of the de-latinization of the rite, they have reverted to the older form, but do not deny the doctrine of the Filioque.
Personally, I wish that they did not do this, I think it is a mistake, as it might give the impression that they are no longer believing the doctrine of the Filioque. But, they are reverting to a previous (the original form) of the Creed, once used in their rite, and they are not denying the doctrine, so it is not something that we need to settle now. The Holy See, when it returns, will have to decide whether to allow them to continue this, or add the words back in.
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Deleted
Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 8:39:05 GMT -5
Can you recommend a book to read on the history of the Ukranian Church or the Eastern Rite Church?
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Post by RitaMarita on Nov 29, 2016 9:09:21 GMT -5
Interesting facts about the Ukranian Rite versus the others...
I have always steered clear of the Eastern Liturgies since some of them started to become modernized.
So, I have a question... The Byzantine priest who gave me my First Communion, Confirmation, and heard my First Confession is supposed to be having his funeral at a Melkite church. (http://holytransfiguration.org/) What is the proper way to act when attending such a funeral? Does anyone know whether the the Melkites are legitimate or not? Should I treat it like the novus ordo and just sit in the back, or refrain from going altogether?
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 29, 2016 14:27:17 GMT -5
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 29, 2016 14:38:48 GMT -5
Interesting facts about the Ukranian Rite versus the others... I have always steered clear of the Eastern Liturgies since some of them started to become modernized. So, I have a question... The Byzantine priest who gave me my First Communion, Confirmation, and heard my First Confession is supposed to be having his funeral at a Melkite church. (http://holytransfiguration.org/) What is the proper way to act when attending such a funeral? Does anyone know whether the the Melkites are legitimate or not? Should I treat it like the novus ordo and just sit in the back, or refrain from going altogether? The most notorious out of all of them is the Maronite rite, it's like they wanted to be the Novus Ordo, part II. I once went to a Melkite church years ago, just to investigate, and was not impressed. One thing that struck me was that they used the "sign of peace," handshaking ritual used in the Novus Ordo. I am not sure about any changes to the Melkite rite, I wish I had more to offer to you. I will do some digging, and hopefully have more to add. In the meanwhile, if you are not sure about the orders of the priest, or have concerns about the Rite itself, until you get more information, you could passively assist at the funeral, meaning you just go, but do not pray or receive communion, in the same manner as you would at a service for a deceased Protestant.
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Post by RitaMarita on Nov 29, 2016 18:13:37 GMT -5
Interesting facts about the Ukranian Rite versus the others... I have always steered clear of the Eastern Liturgies since some of them started to become modernized. So, I have a question... The Byzantine priest who gave me my First Communion, Confirmation, and heard my First Confession is supposed to be having his funeral at a Melkite church. (http://holytransfiguration.org/) What is the proper way to act when attending such a funeral? Does anyone know whether the the Melkites are legitimate or not? Should I treat it like the novus ordo and just sit in the back, or refrain from going altogether? The most notorious out of all of them is the Maronite rite, it's like they wanted to be the Novus Ordo, part II. I once went to a Melkite church years ago, just to investigate, and was not impressed. One thing that struck me was that they used the "sign of peace," handshaking ritual used in the Novus Ordo. I am not sure about any changes to the Melkite rite, I wish I had more to offer to you. I will do some digging, and hopefully have more to add. In the meanwhile, if you are not sure about the orders of the priest, or have concerns about the Rite itself, until you get more information, you could passively assist at the funeral, meaning you just go, but do not pray or receive communion, in the same manner as you would at a service for a deceased Protestant. Thanks for the input! I actually managed to talk to the priest at our chapel about all of this, and he said that I could attend, but not receive Communion. Apparently the particular place where the funeral is being held is a 3 minute drive from my traditional chapel, which is really weird since I have to travel over an hour to Mass every Sunday! It is interesting how God works everything out... As for bad eastern rite Liturgies... I have been to some that made me cringe even more than most novus ordo services! We really need to pray to God to bring about the Restoration! Viva Cristo Rey!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 30, 2016 9:34:24 GMT -5
The only "safe" easterns are the byzantine ruthenians/ukrainians...when I get time Ill talk about some of the abuses in my rite....none of which rise to the NO abuse except one new thing.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 30, 2016 19:53:43 GMT -5
Ok I find it excellent that Pacelli has done good work steering folks to the east during the crisis. But in the spirit of fair play I wish to point out a few things. Firstly when I say east know that I speak only of the Byzantine Ukrainian/Ruthenian Catholics. They are the least effected by the crisis. The melkite and coptics and others are barely Catholic and its moot because unless your a member here at TC from the middle east- the parishes stateside are very few and far between and I doubt your average Roman Trad will run into them. OK any way....these are the few negative aspects where the East is being effected by the crisis. The Ruthenian leadership has it in their heads that the ducks (orthodox schismatics...I call them orthoducks or ducks for brevity sake) they have it in their head that they should be changing everything they can to make the Catholics and ducks simpatico. So a few decades ago they put on a real detailed purge of things "Romanish" or Latinised in the Parishes...no longer do the Ruthenians Mention prayers to the Mother of God...but prayers to the "Theotokos". Now I know Theotokos is a perfectly acceptable title for our Lady...BUT in the Context in which the DL wording was changed and for what intentions ... I find it a bit of a disgrace to the American East. Not only did it mess up the Music (oh the music...let me get back to that) as Mother of God phrased flawlessly with the DL melodies..where as Theotokos just sound "cluncky" and a little silly in certain hymns. ESPECIALLY if like me for decades you had know the "Mother of God" as your title for Our Lady. So ecumenism with the ducks is a major flaw with the east. Then the Music...(again this refers only to the Church in the USA) was a decade ago Changed (in the Ruthenians) to this very complicated set of changeable parts and changing melodies. When I was 11 I could sing along with the Liturgy without any book...NOW as a grown man with a decade or more of Cantoring experience I still cant figure out the "green book" as its called to sing along. The thing that was bogus about it all was NO ONE wanted Changes...no one was displeased with the music as we knew it in our Parishes. All it was was a central conceit of certain megalomaniac Bishops who just cant NOT put their hands on things. Pure ego trips. Now...none of this changed the basic essence or validity of the DL. It just was an irritant and in congruent with what weve known all our Faith lives up to that point. Another thing they do in the Ruthenians (haven't run into this at the Ukrainians) is to frown on "KNEELING"... thats right "KNEELING" is supposed to be a Latinization! Well that little retrograde innovation never completely caught on in certain parishes. I know I still kneel even if everyone is standing during the consecration and the penitent prayers. Its utter change for change sake. Now again their excuse is it "more authentic" to our ethnic roots...BALDERDASH...which leads me to the next problem...the Ukrainians are too Nationalistic. They can be down right rude to non Ukrainians. All our hymn books have Ukrainian Political songs along with the Hymns. Now dont get me wrong....nothing wrong about being proud of where you come from...but in the USA being a snob about it is just arrogance and not a Christian attitude. Now one final thing you will not belive and its something I thought they would never do...but some parishes actually have Altar Girls!! Now thats a deal breaker for me. I will not participate in a Liturgy that has altar Girls. Keep in mind maybe only 3 decades ago the Ukrainians used to segregate their seating for Ladies on the left of the Church and Men on the right. And the Tradition was always that no woman unless she be past Child bearing years was ever allowed past the Iconostas! (the old babas who care for the cleaning and vestments and altar linens are due to this Tradition) Now why? Because very many Eastern Nuns and prominent Eastern Ladies are utterly infected by the contagion of feminism. This is why at the begining of the Reading of the Epistle the first line is always now..."Brothers and Sisters" and not the always before traditional "Brethren". Now again there is nothing wrong with brothers and sisters EXCEPT it was only change for PC reasons and not spiritual. Another place this raises its ugly head is the admission of female Cantors and Readers of the Epistles. UNHEARD OF in the True east of europe....and a very modern wreckovation Stateside. So there yo have it...the warts of the East...lest you think I am a blind partisan first and not a Catholic.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 30, 2016 20:00:18 GMT -5
PS...as per Feminism...they(the Ruthenians) also rewrote the phrase in the Creed where it said....Came down from heaven for us MEN and our salvation to...for US and our salvation. Cant have that pesky "man" word being all "UN inclusive and all. youll notice it is mostly the richer more worldly Ruthenians who made more changes...that is why I switched to the Ukrainians...they kept Mother of God...and dont take "for us MEN" out of the creed.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 30, 2016 20:12:51 GMT -5
It seems to me the problems you are highlighting is Ruthenian, the Ukrainians forbid the women or any female from entering the altar in their law, even as of recently.
Just so the reader is aware, there are no Ruthenian churches on the directory. The Ruthenians are Ukrainian but separate from the Ukrainian-Greek Catholic Church. They have their own Churches, hierarchy. and liturgy separate from the Ukrainian rite churches, liturgy, and hierarchy.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 30, 2016 20:42:14 GMT -5
Particular Law 462 of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church,U.S.A. (the Ukrainian rite):
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 1, 2016 7:49:31 GMT -5
Ok I find it excellent that Pacelli has done good work steering folks to the east during the crisis. But in the spirit of fair play I wish to point out a few things. Firstly when I say east know that I speak only of the Byzantine Ukrainian/Ruthenian Catholics. They are the least effected by the crisis. The melkite and coptics and others are barely Catholic and its moot because unless your a member here at TC from the middle east- the parishes stateside are very few and far between and I doubt your average Roman Trad will run into them. OK any way....these are the few negative aspects where the East is being effected by the crisis. The Ruthenian leadership has it in their heads that the ducks (orthodox schismatics...I call them orthoducks or ducks for brevity sake) they have it in their head that they should be changing everything they can to make the Catholics and ducks simpatico. So a few decades ago they put on a real detailed purge of things "Romanish" or Latinised in the Parishes...no longer do the Ruthenians Mention prayers to the Mother of God...but prayers to the "Theotokos". Now I know Theotokos is a perfectly acceptable title for our Lady...BUT in the Context in which the DL wording was changed and for what intentions ... I find it a bit of a disgrace to the American East. Not only did it mess up the Music (oh the music...let me get back to that) as Mother of God phrased flawlessly with the DL melodies..where as Theotokos just sound "cluncky" and a little silly in certain hymns. ESPECIALLY if like me for decades you had know the "Mother of God" as your title for Our Lady. So ecumenism with the ducks is a major flaw with the east. Then the Music...(again this refers only to the Church in the USA) was a decade ago Changed (in the Ruthenians) to this very complicated set of changeable parts and changing melodies. When I was 11 I could sing along with the Liturgy without any book...NOW as a grown man with a decade or more of Cantoring experience I still cant figure out the "green book" as its called to sing along. The thing that was bogus about it all was NO ONE wanted Changes...no one was displeased with the music as we knew it in our Parishes. All it was was a central conceit of certain megalomaniac Bishops who just cant NOT put their hands on things. Pure ego trips. Now...none of this changed the basic essence or validity of the DL. It just was an irritant and in congruent with what weve known all our Faith lives up to that point. Another thing they do in the Ruthenians (haven't run into this at the Ukrainians) is to frown on "KNEELING"... thats right "KNEELING" is supposed to be a Latinization! Well that little retrograde innovation never completely caught on in certain parishes. I know I still kneel even if everyone is standing during the consecration and the penitent prayers. Its utter change for change sake. Now again their excuse is it "more authentic" to our ethnic roots...BALDERDASH...which leads me to the next problem...the Ukrainians are too Nationalistic. They can be down right rude to non Ukrainians. All our hymn books have Ukrainian Political songs along with the Hymns. Now dont get me wrong....nothing wrong about being proud of where you come from...but in the USA being a snob about it is just arrogance and not a Christian attitude. Now one final thing you will not belive and its something I thought they would never do...but some parishes actually have Altar Girls!! Now thats a deal breaker for me. I will not participate in a Liturgy that has altar Girls. Keep in mind maybe only 3 decades ago the Ukrainians used to segregate their seating for Ladies on the left of the Church and Men on the right. And the Tradition was always that no woman unless she be past Child bearing years was ever allowed past the Iconostas! (the old babas who care for the cleaning and vestments and altar linens are due to this Tradition) Now why? Because very many Eastern Nuns and prominent Eastern Ladies are utterly infected by the contagion of feminism. This is why at the begining of the Reading of the Epistle the first line is always now..."Brothers and Sisters" and not the always before traditional "Brethren". Now again there is nothing wrong with brothers and sisters EXCEPT it was only change for PC reasons and not spiritual. Another place this raises its ugly head is the admission of female Cantors and Readers of the Epistles. UNHEARD OF in the True east of europe....and a very modern wreckovation Stateside. So there yo have it...the warts of the East...lest you think I am a blind partisan first and not a Catholic. Thanks for posting this, Voxx! I went to the Byzantine as a child of 6-8 with my family for a couple of years. Years later when I was 15 or 16 we went back for a friend's Baptism, and I was quite shocked how much everything had changed in those few years for the worse! I have been to some Eastern Rite Liturgies that bothered me more than most novus ordos! And I have been to some pretty bad novus ordo services...
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 1, 2016 12:18:48 GMT -5
Ive never been to a DL that was worse than a NO...never..what happened?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 1, 2016 12:23:02 GMT -5
Particular Law 462 of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church,U.S.A. (the Ukrainian rite): Thank you for this....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 15:18:56 GMT -5
I went to a Ukranian Church 2 yrs ago, twice, and each time the Liturgy was lovely.
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