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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 27, 2016 20:14:51 GMT -5
The only issue I have with the standing/kneeling....it has caused a rift in the laity that wasnt there before.
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Post by wenceslav on Dec 28, 2016 0:53:23 GMT -5
Dear Pacelli,
Thank-you for your responses in this thread - I just have a few more points to make. Please note that I in no way impugn or question the Faith of your average Ukrainian Catholic priest and as Clotilde suggested that many priests have been simply duped into doing what they do. However there are others that clearly have evil motives and they don’t shun away from stating the reasons why:
Consider the following quote from Cardinal Husar (former Head of the Ukr. Church and appointed by JPII in 2000). This quote is from a book by S. Mahieu and V. Naumescu, “Churches In-Between: Greek Catholic Churches in Post-Socialist Europe” [2008], p. 168.
This quote clearly illustrates why the new orientation in the Ukr. Church – ”A return to our ancient traditions…..we want to be one Orthodox-Catholic Church” Balamand could not say it any better …. The formation of a schismatical church made in the image of the false ecclesiology of VII.
The Catholic response is an excerpt from Pope Pius IX from the encyclical OMNEM SOLLICITUDINEM where the Pope warns of the purification of the Ruthenian Rite in the eparchy of Kholm for the purpose of leading Catholics into schism by apostate priests conspiring with the “Orthodox” Czar.
Conclusion: Omnem Sollicitudinem is in complete harmony with Leo XIII’s Orientalium Dignitas. It is up to the naysayer to prove otherwise.
Many of these Ukrainian hierarchs appointed by the conciliar-popes are against these well established Catholic practices (liturgical or para-liturgical) for the false ecumenism of Balamand and VII. They have avoided the Novus Ordo but are going in a syncretic direction just as dangerous for the soul in the long run. Not that much different to the situation in 1964 -1968 when the first damaging changes in the Roman Mass occurred i.e. Holy Mass that was valid on a table etc.
And remember , those advocating for these changes want “Orthodox” theology, an Eastern Orthodox liturgy and a church without the papacy (i.e. primus inter pares) as Ratzinger claims existed in the first millennium.
I promise to shut up now☺.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 28, 2016 9:44:17 GMT -5
Wenceslav You must promise to never shut up!....I want to thank you sincerely for joining and engaging. I have been waiting for decades to hear someone elucidate this problem of "restoring" the eastern rite etc...I have seen these changes as I am Ruthenian by birthrite...but went to the Ukrainians because of changes. I have never been able to adiquately explain it to others very well. Lets change gears about a change made about a decade ago in regards to the liturgy...where in the english title "Mother of God" was changed through out to "Theotokos" (the Ukranians havent made this change)...This was the change that sealed my resolve to go to the Ukranians. I get flack from some because they assume they mean the exact same thing...and of course technically it does...sort of. I felt however it depersonalized Our Lady (even slightly)...I also saw that the change was done for no other reason then to appease the ducks. Do you have any thoughts on this matter?
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 28, 2016 12:19:44 GMT -5
Wenceslav,
As the Ukrainian rite Church (and all eastern rites) continues to believe in the papal claims of these heretics, yes, they are in danger. They could over time fall over the cliff into heresy or schism, which has for the most part happened in the Roman Rite.
There are really two things being discussed, the bigger picture of where the Ukainian Rite is going, and the micro-aspect of it, how do we as lay-Catholics deal with this at the local level, do we continue to go to the Divine Liturgy or has the Rite been significantly damaged by innovation as to make it impious and no longer safe to attend? I can tell you right now, that I have already made that judgment in regards to the Maronite rite, and from what's I've seen of the Melkite, Armenian, and Ruthenian rites I would avoid them as well. My opinion, as it stands now, regarding the Ukrainian rite, it is safe as far as the liturgical rite itself goes, but there may be particular priests that present a danger.
The same problem exists in the traditional chapels of the Roman Rite, btw. Many Catholics are constantly asking themselves if they should stay or go, not due to innovations in the Rite, but for other reasons. The whole situation is a mess.
I am not ignorant of the bigger picture and agree with you, it's why I'm a "sedevacantist." You are preaching to the choir here, John Paul II and his heretical ideas on the unity of the Church must be condemned. I don't think you will find a single person on this forum defending this heresy as espoused in the Balamand agreement.
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Post by wenceslav on Dec 28, 2016 21:58:18 GMT -5
Hi Vox, Appreciate your comments. We probably are of similar heritage -I am of Rusyn heritage with parents from Slovakia. We used to belong to the Slovak Greek Catholic Eparchy up here in Canada i.e. Ontario, I have a small farm on the north shore of Lake Erie about 50 miles due north of Erie, Pennsylvania. We were extremely privileged to have a dear family friend from the old country as our parish priest. He was ordained by the great Bp. Vasyl Hopko auxiliary to the Martyr-Bishop Gojdic. When our priest was alive ( up to the late 90s) we managed to attend his Divine Liturgy in his parish in Toronto. He was quite Traditional and the Liturgy was in Church Slavonic. I remember those days very fondly - a truly holy priest whose saintliness edified the entire parish. Hence we were spared of those issues like the translation of Bohorodica or Mother of God to Theotokos. But I agree, that is a change to appease the ducks, as you say. Here is a quote from Byzcath.org forums regarding change from Mother of God to Theotokos URL: www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/209939/all/TheotokosScroll down to comments by Dr. John.
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Post by wenceslav on Dec 28, 2016 22:28:46 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli, I totally agree with you and your distinction of a macro vs. a micro view of the problem. After the death of our Rusyn priest we tried attending the Ukrainian rite. However with the option of a SSPX mass centre we chose to attend the latter. The Ukes up here are very nationalistic to the point that you're Ukie first, and Catholic second. I know Met. Sheptytsky had terrible problems with a nationalistic faction but was able to control them with his priestly authority. Perhaps this over excessive attention towards nationality over the Faith is why many Ukies are so gullible when it comes to accepting the "Orthodox" as a sister church I.e. It doesn't matter if you're a Catholic or a schismatic just as long as you are Ukrainian.
Since we were acquainted with the SSPX even before our attendance at our Rusyn parish ( and even attended regularly for many years before our reacquaintence with our priest friend) we are thankful to God that we can continue to attend Holy Mass from saintly (and validly ordained) priests with unquestionable orthodoxy. (note: I know, I know tthe SSPX has many problems as well including the constant fear of their dealings with the apostates in the Vatican.) Something that wasn't always true in Ukrainian parishes where many times the sermon would come down to some ridiculous issue in Ukie politics not related to the Faith at all.
We did not attend the Rusyn Slovak parish anymore since our mother-archeparchy in Presov Slovakia changed the words of consecration from "many" to "all" paralleling the Novus ordo changes.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 28, 2016 23:49:17 GMT -5
I too would love a return to church slavonic
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Post by Pacelli on Apr 23, 2017 13:55:29 GMT -5
I would like to add to this discussion that a few days ago I spoke with an old friend about the Melkite rite. He told me that whatever my experience was that made me think they were liberal, it was not his experience. The Melkite Church that he goes to, according to him is rock solid, that they have the Faith, and do not incorporate Novus-Ordo-isms.
With that said, I am willing to say based on this reliable witness that whatever is going on in the Melkite rite, it's obviously not in toto a liberal and heretical body, so if Catholics want to try their local Melkite Church, just use caution.
I would urge the same with all eastern rites, take them on a case by case basis, although, as of now I still have the same negative opinion of the Maronite rite.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Apr 24, 2017 12:53:52 GMT -5
Im glad this thread got a bump from Pacelli...just reread whole thing...its a great thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 0:21:10 GMT -5
When the Ukranian Priest at the Church I attend goes on vacation or for whatever reason is unavailable, it states in the bulletin to "contact a Roman Rite Priest" in his absence. Since the Roman Rite Priests are Novus Ordo what is one supposed to do in this instance??
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 6, 2017 11:04:06 GMT -5
When the Ukranian Priest at the Church I attend goes on vacation or for whatever reason is unavailable, it states in the bulletin to "contact a Roman Rite Priest" in his absence. Since the Roman Rite Priests are Novus Ordo what is one supposed to do in this instance?? Is there another option for you a little further away? For myself, if I cannot get to an unquestionably valid mass/Divine Liturgy for the Sunday, I would stay home. I think it is worthwhile to make a list of all eastern rite and Roman rite masses where is it safe to go within an hour of where you live so you can know every option.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2017 12:25:40 GMT -5
Also, remember no matter where you go, you are under no obligation to tell anything about yourself, make an introduction, etc. You can show up attend mass/DL and go home. Sometimes it is just easier that way and it helps you keep your peace.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 14:31:02 GMT -5
I don't think I expressed my concern above explicitly enough. Another Eastern Rite Priest from out of town comes in for the weekend Divine Liturgies when the Priest is on vacation, etc. However, during the week when there is no available Eastern Rite Priest, in case of emergency, the bulletin states to contact "a Roman Rite Priest". Since the Roman Rite Priests are all Novus Ordo, in case of an emergency, such as in danger of death, etc., what should one do? There are no other Eastern Rite Churches nearby.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2017 18:34:09 GMT -5
Best answer...dont worry if that were to happen (God forbid)...God will provide.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2017 18:35:02 GMT -5
The NO priest (unless he is very old) is probably of no use.
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