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Post by Pacelli on Dec 1, 2016 16:08:58 GMT -5
SenioritaRita wrote:
To all,
SenioritaRita's post has made me aware that some of these terms in this discussion should be better defined so as to not confuse anyone on here. There are a lot of distinctions to be made when discussing the eastern rites.
I think it would be good to mention here for those that might not be aware, that the term "Byzantine" is an umbrella term that applies to 13 separate and distinct rites, each with their own hierarchy, liturgy, churches, and laws, all independent from one another with the exception that they are all Catholic.
In the U.S., the Ruthenians seem to have taken that label more strongly than the others, so when one hears of a "Byzantine" church, it is most likely Ruthenian.
Regarding the "eastern rites," that term is also a new umbrella term that includes all 13 separate and distinct Byzantine rites, along with the two separate and distinct Alexandrian rites, the three Antiochan rites, the two Chaldean rites and the Armenian rite.
When describing the eastern rites, in regards to this crisis, it is good to keep these distinctions in mind, so as to not paint them with a broad brush. It is clear that some of these rites, maybe most, at least those we know of in the U.S., have become seriously infected with all sorts of liberal and in some cases heretical ideas from the Conciliar church.
To make matters more complex, even within these rites, some priests may still be good and faithful, some liberal but not necessarily heretical, and some heretical. So, in every case, I would urge due diligence. Some of these rites are known for widespread infection, while at least one that I am aware of, the reputation is that's the priests are good and orthodox with very few liberal outliers, that being the Ukrainian-rite.
It is for this reason that I made the directory of only Ukrainian Catholic Churches. By this, I am not saying the others in the US are all bad, I just do not know. I just am not comfortable putting them in the directory unless I have more certainty about them: do they jealousy guard their holy orders, how much tampering have they done with their rite, have they adopted all sorts of feminist practices in their liturgy, are they committed to scandalous interfaith prayer with sectarians, do they still preach the faith in sermons, etc.?
One last point, am I saying that every Ukrainian rite Church in the directory is free from all of this? No, I am personally aware of a time least of one liberal, but not heretical Ukrainian priest, and the member, Eric has given a statement of some very serious issues at a Ukrainian church he has gone to, so obviously not all is good everywhere. By and large, however, these problems are not widespread in the Ukrainian rite, they have a culture of doctrinal and liturgical orthodoxy.
For some reason, known only to God, the Ukrainian rite has remained overall and in general a unique anomaly in this crisis. Many Roman Rite Catholics have found a niche with them in this crisis, with some Ukrainian parishes made up almost entirely of Roman Rite refugees, fleeing from the Novus Ordo.
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 1, 2016 22:23:39 GMT -5
Ive never been to a DL that was worse than a NO...never..what happened? Modernization happened... There is only one that I have been to before that was that bad, but I will never forget it because it freaked me out so much... We really need God to intervene and restore Christendom throughout the face of the earth...
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 1, 2016 23:32:14 GMT -5
Ive never been to a DL that was worse than a NO...never..what happened? Modernization happened... There is only one that I have been to before that was that bad, but I will never forget it because it freaked me out so much... We really need God to intervene and restore Christendom throughout the face of the earth... Your not being very specific.
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Deleted
Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 4:36:53 GMT -5
How do you explain to someone who insists that there is only the ROMAN Catholic Rite as they never heard of or encountered the Eastern Rite?? I can't get them to understand about the Eastern Rite and the Roman Rite being the same Church. Perhaps it is the way I am trying to explain it. (This person thinks that by my going to the Ukranian Church that I have left the ROMAN Catholic Church). Please help!! (Ironically, the person is Novus Ordo)!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 2, 2016 6:07:01 GMT -5
How do you explain to someone who insists that there is only the ROMAN Catholic Rite as they never heard of or encountered the Eastern Rite?? I can't get them to understand about the Eastern Rite and the Roman Rite being the same Church. Perhaps it is the way I am trying to explain it. (This person thinks that by my going to the Ukranian Church that I have left the ROMAN Catholic Church). Please help!! (Ironically, the person is Novus Ordo)! How do explain the moon to someone who insists it doesnt exist? Anyway tell them to google it and walk away.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 2, 2016 11:37:41 GMT -5
How do you explain to someone who insists that there is only the ROMAN Catholic Rite as they never heard of or encountered the Eastern Rite?? I can't get them to understand about the Eastern Rite and the Roman Rite being the same Church. Perhaps it is the way I am trying to explain it. (This person thinks that by my going to the Ukranian Church that I have left the ROMAN Catholic Church). Please help!! (Ironically, the person is Novus Ordo)! Many Roman Rite Catholics have never heard of the eastern rites. There is a lot of reasons for this, but one is that the eastern rites even all 23 of them combined, have traditionally made up less than 10% of the Church, with most of their populations being in their native ethnic lands. When people from these ethnic rites emigrated to Europe, the U.S., Canada, Australia, South America, etc., their bishops with the permission of the Holy See sent priests to them so they could preserve their rites as it was in their homeland. When these eastern rite Catholics built churches with their own priests, Roman Rite Catholics did not go to them, they had their own churches, so there was no need. The two types of Catholics went about their lives separately, even if they were in the same town. I am of course generalizing, there might have been a outliers. Due to this, there was a strong ignorance about eastern Catholics. Many Roman Rite Catholics are not aware of them, or just think they are all schismatic "orthodox." Due to the crisis in the Church, many Roman Rite Catholics have given the eastern rites a second look, and many have planted roots with them to get away from the Novus Ordo, so there is more awareness now, than before, but it still exists. My advice is to just be patient with people, this is all so new to so many. Some people just need time to process all of this, so it is good to not overload them. Just help them along the best you can, and leave the rest to God.
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 2, 2016 15:22:43 GMT -5
Modernization happened... There is only one that I have been to before that was that bad, but I will never forget it because it freaked me out so much... We really need God to intervene and restore Christendom throughout the face of the earth... Your not being very specific. Lots of laughter... That is because I tried to forget it, and succeeded for the most part! It was also about ten years ago, and I don't have a great memory... One thing that does stick in my mind is that the priest asked all the people in the church to go up into the Sanctuary and gather sit around him on the floor while he gave them a sermon and they sang songs together. I think that they even may have all held hands in a circle for a while during this... There were other things too like the fact that the music had modern tonalities like Protestant music while still in a Middle-Eastern style. It was all so weird after going to a more traditional Byzantine Litury as a child... I didn't go up during the sermon, and watched from a distance during the whole thing... Is that better and a little more specific?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 2, 2016 16:15:55 GMT -5
Your not being very specific. Lots of laughter... That is because I tried to forget it, and succeeded for the most part! It was also about ten years ago, and I don't have a great memory... One thing that does stick in my mind is that the priest asked all the people in the church to go up into the Sanctuary and gather sit around him on the floor while he gave them a sermon and they sang songs together. I think that they even may have all held hands in a circle for a while during this... There were other things too like the fact that the music had modern tonalities like Protestant music while still in a Middle-Eastern style. It was all so weird after going to a more traditional Byzantine Litury as a child... I didn't go up during the sermon, and watched from a distance during the whole thing... Is that better and a little more specific? wow
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 3, 2016 19:34:13 GMT -5
Lots of laughter... That is because I tried to forget it, and succeeded for the most part! It was also about ten years ago, and I don't have a great memory... One thing that does stick in my mind is that the priest asked all the people in the church to go up into the Sanctuary and gather sit around him on the floor while he gave them a sermon and they sang songs together. I think that they even may have all held hands in a circle for a while during this... There were other things too like the fact that the music had modern tonalities like Protestant music while still in a Middle-Eastern style. It was all so weird after going to a more traditional Byzantine Litury as a child... I didn't go up during the sermon, and watched from a distance during the whole thing... Is that better and a little more specific? wow I love how you find and post these memes!!!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 3, 2016 23:30:20 GMT -5
This was considered unacceptable at TD
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 5, 2016 9:29:21 GMT -5
This was considered unacceptable at TD Really??? The memes are one of my favorite parts of this forum!!! They give me a little laugh and help me make it through the day. I am glad that you allow them here!!!
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2016 14:37:40 GMT -5
Someone has sent me some links showing some Ukrainian clerics, including bishops, engaging in interfaith prayer. While I am keenly aware that this has been a problem with some clerics, I have always held the opinion that by and large, most of the Ukrainian clerics do not hold any heretical ideas. Obviously, as an opinion, I could change my mind on this, but as of now, I believe that it is solidly grounded, and if the data supports a modification I will do so.
The 1917 Code is clear, interfaith prayer between Catholics and sectarians is forbidden, and if a Catholic engages in such acts he is suspect of heresy. The act is not sufficient, in and of itself, to determine a person is a heretic, but it casts suspicion on someone that demands that the cause of the suspicion be removed, after being warned, and if not censure will ensue.
I bring this up to reiterate what I wrote previously, that I hold the opinion that most of the Ukrainian clerics have not defected from the Faith, although some are liberal, and some can be suspected of heresy. In recent years, especially in the Ukraine, there have been a lot of ordinations, they have gone from a rite with a depleted priesthood, to having thousands of priests. I am not sure how this changes the dynamics, are these new priests orthodox, or are the errors of the Conciliar sect breaking through the walls of the Ukrainian stronghold. Time will tell, my hope is for the former. From my experience, the ones to be more careful about are the American/Canadian born clergy, as opposed to those who were born and raised in the Ukrainian and then were sent to the U.S./Canada.
So let me say this again clearly, that Catholics must use due diligence no matter where they go to mass. I also recently gave my opinion on the dangers of so called "home-alonism," so that is not some kind of safe fortress either as some believe. There are dangers everywhere. You can't get overly comfortable. Even if your priest is good, he could retire or be transfered and you never know who will replace him. Sometimes priests can change as well, they are not immune to the effects of this crisis and the culture that surrounds them. This is life in a long term sedevacante, the lawful shepherds are not there to watch over you, so you must do so yourself.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 5, 2016 19:17:21 GMT -5
This was considered unacceptable at TD Really??? The memes are one of my favorite parts of this forum!!! They give me a little laugh and help me make it through the day. I am glad that you allow them here!!! One of the reasons I started the forum on my own. Thing was it left me kind of sour because it was one of the features of TDeum that attracted folks to it and helped it grow...and then as more umm..."purists" shall we say joined I began to become an "embarrassment" to the staff who demanded I no longer use gifs and memes....oh well. Here we are.
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 5, 2016 20:48:48 GMT -5
Really??? The memes are one of my favorite parts of this forum!!! They give me a little laugh and help me make it through the day. I am glad that you allow them here!!! One of the reasons I started the forum on my own. Thing was it left me kind of sour because it was one of the features of TDeum that attracted folks to it and helped it grow...and then as more umm..."purists" shall we say joined I began to become an "embarrassment" to the staff who demanded I no longer use gifs and memes....oh well. Here we are. Well, I for one am very grateful that you started this site and have the memes! They always make me laugh and feel more light-hearted! And I really need that sometimes! So, thank you for that! It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Saint Theresa of Avila, "Lord, please save me from sour-faced saints!"
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Post by Clotilde on Dec 5, 2016 21:17:06 GMT -5
Really??? The memes are one of my favorite parts of this forum!!! They give me a little laugh and help me make it through the day. I am glad that you allow them here!!! One of the reasons I started the forum on my own. Thing was it left me kind of sour because it was one of the features of TDeum that attracted folks to it and helped it grow...and then as more umm..."purists" shall we say joined I began to become an "embarrassment" to the staff who demanded I no longer use gifs and memes....oh well. Here we are. Whenever I see a good gif I wonder if you already know about it...
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