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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 11:21:00 GMT -5
Had a little Go round with good Trad Priest on FB when Hefner died. Basically he was castigating many for daring to comment about Hefner's damnation. I think its an interesting topic Id like to explore.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 11:32:14 GMT -5
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Post by micah1199 on Oct 1, 2017 11:50:44 GMT -5
Only God knows.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 1, 2017 13:41:54 GMT -5
It's a danger to presume that which God has not revealed.
On the other hand, I think it is safe to say that he had all the signs of the reprobate, as he showed no signs of repentance whatsoever, as he did not try in any way to undo the damage he did to souls, or publicly recant for his wickedness.
This man was to morals what Luther was to doctrine, both perverts of the highest order.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 14:33:07 GMT -5
It's a danger to presume that which God has not revealed. On the other hand, I think it is safe to say that he had all the signs of the reprobate, as he showed no signs of repentance whatsoever, as he did not try in any way to undo the damage he did to souls, or publicly recant for his wickedness. This man was to morals what Luther was to doctrine, both perverts of the highest order. thats my point...If I make the statement that Judas is in hell....have I made a rash presumption? What about stalin whom was recorded as of no repentence when he died and apparantly had visions of wolves coming for him when he died. I mean if JP2 asserts hell is empty then hes on sound ground?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 14:35:11 GMT -5
The trad Father told me that there is no Church proclaimation that Judas is in Hell....how can that be possible?
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 1, 2017 16:34:46 GMT -5
It's a danger to presume that which God has not revealed. On the other hand, I think it is safe to say that he had all the signs of the reprobate, as he showed no signs of repentance whatsoever, as he did not try in any way to undo the damage he did to souls, or publicly recant for his wickedness. This man was to morals what Luther was to doctrine, both perverts of the highest order. thats my point...If I make the statement that Judas is in hell....have I made a rash presumption? What about stalin whom was recorded as of no repentence when he died and apparantly had visions of wolves coming for him when he died. I mean if JP2 asserts hell is empty then hes on sound ground? I believe it's safe to say that he lived a life which appears to have ended in Hell, but not to go so far as to say with certainty that he is in Hell, as God has not revealed that to us. The same would apply to Stalin, Hitler, Luther, Nero and every other wicked character in history. Even regarding the good who go to Heaven, we just cannot say with certainty except for those declared saints by the Church. We can make a reasonable opinion based on the facts of ones life, so long as we stop short of making it a certain judgment of it as a fact.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 17:04:56 GMT -5
If you can believe God (and you can) who warns us NOT to sin ....why? If in the end you might get a pass.(Im making a contrary argument on purpose)
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 1, 2017 17:32:51 GMT -5
" And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me. [22] And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord? [23] But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. [24] The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. [25] And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it."
It is my understanding that the knowledge of Judas's eternal fate is attributed to Scripture. In regards to anyone else, it can only be known by Divine revelation. We do not know who is in Hell nor Heaven unless by Eccesiastically approved revelation.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 1, 2017 17:39:06 GMT -5
If you can believe God (and you can) who warns us NOT to sin ....why? If in the end you might get a pass.(Im making a contrary argument on purpose) The reason why is that although rare, there is always the chance of a deathbed conversion. Anyone who dies without repenting of their mortal sins will certainly be damned. This is not saying that such people get a pass, it is saying that so long as one lives, one has the chance to repent, change their life, accept and believe the true Faith and enter into (or be restored) to the grace of God. So long as there is time left, there is at least the possibility of amendment, which is why we pray so much for help at the hour of death. Think of the parable of the workman. We just dont know with cerainty what goes on with the dying. That's why it is a mystery. I would say though, that the general rule is that people die as they live.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 17:48:34 GMT -5
So is it a sin to believe confidently that Judas Iscariot is damned? And say so?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 17:57:32 GMT -5
" And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me. [22] And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord? [23] But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. [24] The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. [25] And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it." It is my understanding that the knowledge of Judas's eternal fate is attributed to Scripture. In regards to anyone else, it can only be known by Divine revelation. We do not know who is in Hell nor Heaven unless by Eccesiastically approved revelation. But dont we safely draw many inferences positively from Church teachings on scripture. 1cor6:9
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 1, 2017 18:04:01 GMT -5
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 1, 2017 18:07:44 GMT -5
Vox, maybe to flip this around will help. Can anyone know with absolute certainty that he is in the state of grace?
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 1, 2017 18:14:54 GMT -5
In general to your statements, save the last, yes. The point is we know that unrepentant sinners are damned. We just don't know with absolute certainty who that is. We don't have to though either. We also know that God hardens the hearts of sinners so to sin with the idea of God's mercy will save us adds the aditional sin of presumption. I believe this is considered a sin directly against the Holy Ghost but would have to read up on the subject.
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