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Post by truth333 on Dec 5, 2017 1:33:42 GMT -5
Then according to your personal private position, church teaching is superfluous, and that we should presume upon some unknown mercy of God. Honestly, what do we need hell for? I will leave it at that. Tanquerrey, Augustine, Ligouri all write authoritatively on potential deathbed conversions. But I think the Dialogue of Catherine Sienna gives a good glimpse that the mercy of God is indeed willing and ready to forgive ANY and ALL sin if one were to trully repent even if one delay conversion til the very, very end. That is why even if a person is rejected an ecclesiastical burial you can and are encouraged to pray for them. But it is left to the church to decide. By no means is sin or delay anything but repugnant but we must not be scared of the TRUTH! God would and does FORGIVE. It is the basis of the Sacred Hearts teaching to Margaret Mary. Catechism 101 "That is why even if a person is rejected an ecclesiastical burial you can and are encouraged to pray for them."
Andrew, you are dead wrong. Your own words prove, that in fact, you hold your own private personal positions on Catholic teachings, instead of the actual teachings themselves. Pope St. Gregory the Great, Moralia, Book 34: “There is, therefore, the same reason for not praying then for men condemned to eternal fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who have been consigned to eternal punishment. And this is now the reason for holy men not praying for unbelieving and ungodly men who are dead; for they are unwilling that the merit of their prayer should be set aside, in that presence of the righteous Judge, in behalf of those whom they know to be already consigned to eternal punishment.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5. “Gregory says ( Moralia xxxiv): There is the same reason for not praying then (namely after the judgment day) for men condemned to everlasting fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who are sentenced to eternal punishment, and for this reason the saints do not pray for dead unbelieving and wicked men, because, forsooth, knowing them to be already condemned to eternal punishment, they shrink from pleading for them by the merit of their prayers…” St. Thomas also cites St. Augustine, who taught the same: St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5: “Further, the text (iv. Sent. D. 45) quotes the words of Augustine (De Verb. Apost. Serm. xxxii): ‘If a man depart this life without the faith that works by charity and its sacraments, in vain do his friends have recourse to such acts of kindness [prayers and suffrages for him].’ Now all the damned come under that head. Therefore suffrages profit them not.” Pope St. Gregory II even says that Catholics who die in a state of mortal sin, cannot be prayed for. Which points right at Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.” Pope St. Gregory II (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.” St. Francis Xavier, Nov. 5, 1549: “The corsair who commanded our vessel died here at Cagoxima. He did his work for us, on the whole, as we wished… He himself chose to die in his own superstitions; he did not even leave us the power of rewarding him by that kindness which we can after death do to other friends who die in the profession of the Christian faith, in commending their souls to God, since the poor fellow by his own hand cast his soul into hell, where there is no redemption.” "Tanquerrey, Augustine, Ligouri all write authoritatively on **potential** deathbed conversions."
You prefer your own personal private positions of potentiality, possibilities, etc instead of what is known and taught by the church. "… but we must not be scared of the TRUTH!"This is my point exactly to you. ^^^ It seems that you don't like the exactitude of God and prefer some wiggle room or a get out of jail free card. Isn't God's design and structure for salvation, good enough for you? Isn't God's justice just, for those who willfully reject His grace, to fulfill His commandments. In reality, you are saying that God commands impossibilities.All this I say in charity to you. It is not charitable to go along to get along.
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Post by Andrew on Dec 5, 2017 2:12:38 GMT -5
"Pope St. Gregory II even says that Catholics who die in a state of mortal sin, cannot be prayed for. Which points right at Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.”
All the other quotes seem to apply to praying for already judged damned soul in a way as if they could still be redeemed or if prayers could change their already judged eternal fate. OR that prayers and offerings amount to no benefit for them. But this quote indicates that we are not allowed to even pray for those presumed to have died unrepentent. And if this be the case than I stand corrected, beg your pardon, thank you for correction, beg forgiveness and submit to Pope Gregory's teaching.
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Post by Andrew on Dec 5, 2017 3:19:57 GMT -5
IF however Pope Gregory meant prayers are not offered for them PUBLICLY because no one but God knows what happens between Him and a soul prior to death except by special revelation. We can pray. Whatever the aproved theologians teach on this matter I will adhere to.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2017 10:59:47 GMT -5
Isn't it obvious from the discussion? It is what the entire thread is about. God has not revealed to us whether Hefner is damned. Then according to your personal private position, church teaching is superfluous, and that we should presume upon some unknown mercy of God. Honestly, what do we need hell for? I will leave it at that.w I never said we should presume upon the mercy of God. Clearly, many are in Hell, that is a fact. We just don't know who they are unless God reveals that to us. It is pride and arrogance to speak for God telling others that such and such is damned when you have nothing to base it on except your private non-authority.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2017 11:10:13 GMT -5
Tanquerrey, Augustine, Ligouri all write authoritatively on potential deathbed conversions. But I think the Dialogue of Catherine Sienna gives a good glimpse that the mercy of God is indeed willing and ready to forgive ANY and ALL sin if one were to trully repent even if one delay conversion til the very, very end. That is why even if a person is rejected an ecclesiastical burial you can and are encouraged to pray for them. But it is left to the church to decide. By no means is sin or delay anything but repugnant but we must not be scared of the TRUTH! God would and does FORGIVE. It is the basis of the Sacred Hearts teaching to Margaret Mary. Catechism 101 "That is why even if a person is rejected an ecclesiastical burial you can and are encouraged to pray for them."
Andrew, you are dead wrong. Your own words prove, that in fact, you hold your own private personal positions on Catholic teachings, instead of the actual teachings themselves. Pope St. Gregory the Great, Moralia, Book 34: “There is, therefore, the same reason for not praying then for men condemned to eternal fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who have been consigned to eternal punishment. And this is now the reason for holy men not praying for unbelieving and ungodly men who are dead; for they are unwilling that the merit of their prayer should be set aside, in that presence of the righteous Judge, in behalf of those whom they know to be already consigned to eternal punishment.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5. “Gregory says ( Moralia xxxiv): There is the same reason for not praying then (namely after the judgment day) for men condemned to everlasting fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who are sentenced to eternal punishment, and for this reason the saints do not pray for dead unbelieving and wicked men, because, forsooth, knowing them to be already condemned to eternal punishment, they shrink from pleading for them by the merit of their prayers…” St. Thomas also cites St. Augustine, who taught the same: St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5: “Further, the text (iv. Sent. D. 45) quotes the words of Augustine (De Verb. Apost. Serm. xxxii): ‘If a man depart this life without the faith that works by charity and its sacraments, in vain do his friends have recourse to such acts of kindness [prayers and suffrages for him].’ Now all the damned come under that head. Therefore suffrages profit them not.” Pope St. Gregory II even says that Catholics who die in a state of mortal sin, cannot be prayed for. Which points right at Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.” Pope St. Gregory II (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.” St. Francis Xavier, Nov. 5, 1549: “The corsair who commanded our vessel died here at Cagoxima. He did his work for us, on the whole, as we wished… He himself chose to die in his own superstitions; he did not even leave us the power of rewarding him by that kindness which we can after death do to other friends who die in the profession of the Christian faith, in commending their souls to God, since the poor fellow by his own hand cast his soul into hell, where there is no redemption.” "Tanquerrey, Augustine, Ligouri all write authoritatively on **potential** deathbed conversions."
You prefer your own personal private positions of potentiality, possibilities, etc instead of what is known and taught by the church. "… but we must not be scared of the TRUTH!"This is my point exactly to you. ^^^ It seems that you don't like the exactitude of God and prefer some wiggle room or a get out of jail free card. Isn't God's design and structure for salvation, good enough for you? Isn't God's justice just, for those who willfully reject His grace, to fulfill His commandments. In reality, you are saying that God commands impossibilities.All this I say in charity to you. It is not charitable to go along to get along. We are not discussing the public law of the Church which does judge externals. Your quotes again are irrelevant to the one fact being discussed, namely, whether Mr Hefner is damned and whether a person can speak for God and say as such. The discussion as a general principle could apply it to anyone. You rely on your private judgment and believe that you can speak for God. Only God knows the the judgment of a soul at his particular judgment. Even the Church cannot say this, but the Church can make laws based on the external facts, none of which says with certainty where that soul actually is. The only exception to this is that the Church may canonize giving infallible assurance that a particular person is saved.
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Post by truth333 on Dec 5, 2017 16:03:13 GMT -5
"That is why even if a person is rejected an ecclesiastical burial you can and are encouraged to pray for them."
Andrew, you are dead wrong. Your own words prove, that in fact, you hold your own private personal positions on Catholic teachings, instead of the actual teachings themselves. Pope St. Gregory the Great, Moralia, Book 34: “There is, therefore, the same reason for not praying then for men condemned to eternal fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who have been consigned to eternal punishment. And this is now the reason for holy men not praying for unbelieving and ungodly men who are dead; for they are unwilling that the merit of their prayer should be set aside, in that presence of the righteous Judge, in behalf of those whom they know to be already consigned to eternal punishment.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5. “Gregory says ( Moralia xxxiv): There is the same reason for not praying then (namely after the judgment day) for men condemned to everlasting fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who are sentenced to eternal punishment, and for this reason the saints do not pray for dead unbelieving and wicked men, because, forsooth, knowing them to be already condemned to eternal punishment, they shrink from pleading for them by the merit of their prayers…” St. Thomas also cites St. Augustine, who taught the same: St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5: “Further, the text (iv. Sent. D. 45) quotes the words of Augustine (De Verb. Apost. Serm. xxxii): ‘If a man depart this life without the faith that works by charity and its sacraments, in vain do his friends have recourse to such acts of kindness [prayers and suffrages for him].’ Now all the damned come under that head. Therefore suffrages profit them not.” Pope St. Gregory II even says that Catholics who die in a state of mortal sin, cannot be prayed for. Which points right at Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.” Pope St. Gregory II (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.” St. Francis Xavier, Nov. 5, 1549: “The corsair who commanded our vessel died here at Cagoxima. He did his work for us, on the whole, as we wished… He himself chose to die in his own superstitions; he did not even leave us the power of rewarding him by that kindness which we can after death do to other friends who die in the profession of the Christian faith, in commending their souls to God, since the poor fellow by his own hand cast his soul into hell, where there is no redemption.” "Tanquerrey, Augustine, Ligouri all write authoritatively on **potential** deathbed conversions."
You prefer your own personal private positions of potentiality, possibilities, etc instead of what is known and taught by the church. "… but we must not be scared of the TRUTH!"This is my point exactly to you. ^^^ It seems that you don't like the exactitude of God and prefer some wiggle room or a get out of jail free card. Isn't God's design and structure for salvation, good enough for you? Isn't God's justice just, for those who willfully reject His grace, to fulfill His commandments. In reality, you are saying that God commands impossibilities.All this I say in charity to you. It is not charitable to go along to get along. We are not discussing the public law of the Church which does judge externals. Your quotes again are irrelevant to the one fact being discussed, namely, whether Mr Hefner is damned and whether a person can speak for God and say as such. The discussion as a general principle could apply it to anyone. You rely on your private judgment and believe that you can speak for God. Only God knows the the judgment of a soul at his particular judgment. Even the Church cannot say this, but the Church can make laws based on the external facts, none of which says with certainty where that soul actually is. The only exception to this is that the Church may canonize giving infallible assurance that a particular person is saved. "We are not discussing the public law of the Church which does judge externals. … The only exception to this is that the Church may canonize giving infallible assurance that a particular person is saved."
Although there is a law that deals with the internal structure of the catholic church i.e. ecclesiastical law pertaining to those in office, the hierarchy of the catholic church, other than that all catholic law is public because it deals with catholics who are the public. The structure of the catholic church can only judge by external actions. You actually confirm that in your comment cited in bold face above ^^^. The church can only use evidence of the actions of the catholic person being considered for sainthood. But then you attempt a contradistinction, where none exist, for those that the church clearly teaches concerning reprobates. You destroy your own argument. But it is destroyed because of the teaching of the catholic church. Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.” St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30: “… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; BUT WHEN THEY SEE THAT SOMEONE IS A HERETIC BY HIS EXTERNAL WORKS, THEY JUDGE HIM TO BE A HERETIC PURE AND SIMPLE, AND CONDEMN HIM AS A HERETIC.” Pope St. Gregory II (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.” It is a simple principle of life that whatever is inside a man, it will manifest on the outside. A boil that is on the surface of a man, is the manifestation of what is on the inside. This principle applies to the soul also. The human soul is the human form. Ecclesiasticus 27:6-10 [6] The furnace trieth the potter's vessels, and the trial of affliction just men. [7] Be the dressing of a tree sheweth the fruit thereof, so a word out of the thought of the heart of man. [8] Praise not a man before he speaketh, for this is the trial of men. [9] If thou followest justice, thou shalt obtain her: and shalt put her on as a long robe of honour, and thou shalt dwell with her: and she shall protect thee for ever, and in the day of acknowledgment thou shalt find a strong foundation. [10] Birds resort unto their like: so truth will return to them that practise her.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 5, 2017 16:29:19 GMT -5
All of your quotes refer to generalities. The thread is asking if a specific person IS beyond Doubt in Hell...Mr Hefner... the question YOU are answering over and over is DO EVIL UNREPENTANT PEOPLE GO TO HELL...which, of course, everyone here agrees they do. YOUR argument YOU need to make is one that proves Catholics or anyone for that matter is authorised...qualified...and justified in naming a SPECIFIC person in hell. You keep arguing a point no one is making. Cherry Picking and setting up a straw man.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2017 17:06:45 GMT -5
We are not discussing the public law of the Church which does judge externals. Your quotes again are irrelevant to the one fact being discussed, namely, whether Mr Hefner is damned and whether a person can speak for God and say as such. The discussion as a general principle could apply it to anyone. You rely on your private judgment and believe that you can speak for God. Only God knows the the judgment of a soul at his particular judgment. Even the Church cannot say this, but the Church can make laws based on the external facts, none of which says with certainty where that soul actually is. The only exception to this is that the Church may canonize giving infallible assurance that a particular person is saved. "We are not discussing the public law of the Church which does judge externals. … The only exception to this is that the Church may canonize giving infallible assurance that a particular person is saved."
Although there is a law that deals with the internal structure of the catholic church i.e. ecclesiastical law pertaining to those in office, the hierarchy of the catholic church, other than that all catholic law is public because it deals with catholics who are the public. The structure of the catholic church can only judge by external actions. You actually confirm that in your comment cited in bold face above ^^^. The church can only use evidence of the actions of the catholic person being considered for sainthood. But then you attempt a contradistinction, where none exist, for those that the church clearly teaches concerning reprobates. You destroy your own argument. But it is destroyed because of the teaching of the catholic church. Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.” St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30: “… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; BUT WHEN THEY SEE THAT SOMEONE IS A HERETIC BY HIS EXTERNAL WORKS, THEY JUDGE HIM TO BE A HERETIC PURE AND SIMPLE, AND CONDEMN HIM AS A HERETIC.” Pope St. Gregory II (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.” It is a simple principle of life that whatever is inside a man, it will manifest on the outside. A boil that is on the surface of a man, is the manifestation of what is on the inside. This principle applies to the soul also. The human soul is the human form. Ecclesiasticus 27:6-10 [6] The furnace trieth the potter's vessels, and the trial of affliction just men. [7] Be the dressing of a tree sheweth the fruit thereof, so a word out of the thought of the heart of man. [8] Praise not a man before he speaketh, for this is the trial of men. [9] If thou followest justice, thou shalt obtain her: and shalt put her on as a long robe of honour, and thou shalt dwell with her: and she shall protect thee for ever, and in the day of acknowledgment thou shalt find a strong foundation. [10] Birds resort unto their like: so truth will return to them that practise her.
You are evading and your sources do not support you. None of your sources supports the view that we know how God judged a person in that person's particular judgment. The Church gives laws that judge externals, and Catholics must act accordingly. For example, the Church has the power to refuse a Catholic burial to a catechumen, as that person has died as a non-member of the Church, The Church also has the power to allow for a Catholic burial, as the 1917 Code shows. In the former case, the lack of a Catholic burial is not a judgment that the person is damned, it was was a law based on the external facts, not a judgment that binds God. When you produce an approved Catholic source which states that a man using his own private judgment can declare God's particular judgment of a soul, then you will have an argument. If you are being honest, I think you know enough to realize that such a source doesn't exist, and all of your irrelevant sources have not proven your case, just obfuscated the issue.
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Post by truth333 on Dec 5, 2017 18:18:24 GMT -5
"We are not discussing the public law of the Church which does judge externals. … The only exception to this is that the Church may canonize giving infallible assurance that a particular person is saved."
Although there is a law that deals with the internal structure of the catholic church i.e. ecclesiastical law pertaining to those in office, the hierarchy of the catholic church, other than that all catholic law is public because it deals with catholics who are the public. The structure of the catholic church can only judge by external actions. You actually confirm that in your comment cited in bold face above ^^^. The church can only use evidence of the actions of the catholic person being considered for sainthood. But then you attempt a contradistinction, where none exist, for those that the church clearly teaches concerning reprobates. You destroy your own argument. But it is destroyed because of the teaching of the catholic church. Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code: “Positing an external violation of the law, malice in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.” St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30: “… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; BUT WHEN THEY SEE THAT SOMEONE IS A HERETIC BY HIS EXTERNAL WORKS, THEY JUDGE HIM TO BE A HERETIC PURE AND SIMPLE, AND CONDEMN HIM AS A HERETIC.” Pope St. Gregory II (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.” It is a simple principle of life that whatever is inside a man, it will manifest on the outside. A boil that is on the surface of a man, is the manifestation of what is on the inside. This principle applies to the soul also. The human soul is the human form. Ecclesiasticus 27:6-10 [6] The furnace trieth the potter's vessels, and the trial of affliction just men. [7] Be the dressing of a tree sheweth the fruit thereof, so a word out of the thought of the heart of man. [8] Praise not a man before he speaketh, for this is the trial of men. [9] If thou followest justice, thou shalt obtain her: and shalt put her on as a long robe of honour, and thou shalt dwell with her: and she shall protect thee for ever, and in the day of acknowledgment thou shalt find a strong foundation. [10] Birds resort unto their like: so truth will return to them that practise her.
You are evading and your sources do not support you. None of your sources supports the view that we know how God judged a person in that person's particular judgment. The Church gives laws that judge externals, and Catholics must act accordingly. For example, the Church has the power to refuse a Catholic burial to a catechumen, as that person has died as a non-member of the Church, The Church also has the power to allow for a Catholic burial, as the 1917 Code shows. In the former case, the lack of a Catholic burial is not a judgment that the person is damned, it was was a law based on the external facts, not a judgment that binds God. When you produce an approved Catholic source which states that a man using his own private judgment can declare God's particular judgment of a soul, then you will have an argument. If you are being honest, I think you know enough to realize that such a source doesn't exist, and all of your irrelevant sources have not proven your case, just obfuscated the issue. "For example, the Church has the power to refuse a Catholic burial to a catechumen, as that person has died as a non-member of the Church, The Church also has the power to allow for a Catholic burial, as the 1917 Code shows. In the former case, the lack of a Catholic burial is not a judgment that the person is damned, it was was a law based on the external facts, not a judgment that binds God." Lol! Wow! Really? I'm not being snide, I just can't believe that you said that, I can't stop laughing. As you imply, why would the church deny the non-catholic catechumen, a catholic burial, if he is in heaven?? The denial of a catholic burial, is a punitive action, for the inaction on the part of the catechumen. Are you saying that a jew, could be in heaven?? Is that the new definition of Unity? Diversity is the new Unity? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. Pacelli, you call God a liar, which is outrageous i.e. "not a judgment that binds God." Just about all those who call themselves "traditionalist" have the same false view as you do, its mind boggling. Men, who live liberal lives, must have liberal views of God, otherwise, their consciences would forever disturb them. Simply put, they fool themselves, not God. Ecclesiasticus 27:10 [10] Birds resort unto their like: … God is not a liar, He is very faithful to His Word. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2017 18:26:10 GMT -5
You are evading and your sources do not support you. None of your sources supports the view that we know how God judged a person in that person's particular judgment. The Church gives laws that judge externals, and Catholics must act accordingly. For example, the Church has the power to refuse a Catholic burial to a catechumen, as that person has died as a non-member of the Church, The Church also has the power to allow for a Catholic burial, as the 1917 Code shows. In the former case, the lack of a Catholic burial is not a judgment that the person is damned, it was was a law based on the external facts, not a judgment that binds God. When you produce an approved Catholic source which states that a man using his own private judgment can declare God's particular judgment of a soul, then you will have an argument. If you are being honest, I think you know enough to realize that such a source doesn't exist, and all of your irrelevant sources have not proven your case, just obfuscated the issue. "For example, the Church has the power to refuse a Catholic burial to a catechumen, as that person has died as a non-member of the Church, The Church also has the power to allow for a Catholic burial, as the 1917 Code shows. In the former case, the lack of a Catholic burial is not a judgment that the person is damned, it was was a law based on the external facts, not a judgment that binds God." Lol! Wow! Really? I'm not being snide, I just can't believe that you said that, I can't stop laughing. As you imply, why would the church deny the non-catholic catechumen, a catholic burial, if he is in heaven?? The denial of a catholic burial, is a punitive action, for the inaction on the part of the catechumen. Are you saying that a jew, could be in heaven?? Is that the new definition of Unity? Diversity is the new Unity? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. Pacelli, you call God a liar, which is outrageous i.e. "not a judgment that binds God." Just about all those who call themselves "traditionalist" have the same false view as you do, its mind boggling. Men, who live liberal lives, must have liberal views of God, otherwise, their consciences would forever disturb them. Simply put, they fool themselves, not God. Ecclesiasticus 27:10 [10] Birds resort unto their like: … God is not a liar, He is very faithful to His Word. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?Do you deny that you must believe and obey the laws at proscribed by the 1917 Code? Specifically, do you reject canon 1239 which explicitly authorizes Catholic burial for catechumens? Do you believe that the Church can promulgate laws that are not protected by secondary infallibility in Her universal laws?
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Post by truth333 on Dec 5, 2017 20:09:25 GMT -5
"For example, the Church has the power to refuse a Catholic burial to a catechumen, as that person has died as a non-member of the Church, The Church also has the power to allow for a Catholic burial, as the 1917 Code shows. In the former case, the lack of a Catholic burial is not a judgment that the person is damned, it was was a law based on the external facts, not a judgment that binds God." Lol! Wow! Really? I'm not being snide, I just can't believe that you said that, I can't stop laughing. As you imply, why would the church deny the non-catholic catechumen, a catholic burial, if he is in heaven?? The denial of a catholic burial, is a punitive action, for the inaction on the part of the catechumen. Are you saying that a jew, could be in heaven?? Is that the new definition of Unity? Diversity is the new Unity? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. Pacelli, you call God a liar, which is outrageous i.e. "not a judgment that binds God." Just about all those who call themselves "traditionalist" have the same false view as you do, its mind boggling. Men, who live liberal lives, must have liberal views of God, otherwise, their consciences would forever disturb them. Simply put, they fool themselves, not God. Ecclesiasticus 27:10 [10] Birds resort unto their like: … God is not a liar, He is very faithful to His Word. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?Do you deny that you must believe and obey the laws at proscribed by the 1917 Code? Specifically, do you reject canon 1239 which explicitly authorizes Catholic burial for catechumens? Do you believe that the Church can promulgate laws that are not protected by secondary infallibility in Her universal laws? There is no such thing as secondary infallibility, this is your creation, expounded in your own thread. Not everything that a pope says is infallible. Pacelli, the chair of St. Peter is vacant, just like during Jeremias time, there isn't a hierarchy, its been destroyed just like many times in the old testament. We have been living through the supreme punishment from God, since 1958. Much of the Canon, in this situation does not apply. Pacelli, at this point, you are on a different planet, we are not going to agree. Leave it at that. Thank you
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 5, 2017 20:25:44 GMT -5
Is it a trait of faithful Catholics to openly violate just and prudent rules Truth333? Disrespecting moderators is a rule violation. Which is a just and prudent rule...for good order in this forum and for society in general. Catholic society prosepers when there is respect and proper deference for rules. That being said...say buh bye.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 5, 2017 21:05:10 GMT -5
I wonder what the reaction of a faithful servant of truth would have to being shown the door.
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