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Post by wenceslav on Jun 25, 2017 21:36:05 GMT -5
As promised I have added more material about kneeling in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I still need to get a key journal article to prove my thesis that Ukrainians soon began this practice around the Union of Bresc.
Why is this important to me? Kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament is a manifestation of our Faith in the Real Presence. It's rejection by the present-day Slavic Catholic hierarchy/clergy, in the 1990s, mostly by the influence of Modernist Ukrainian clergy from the diaspora(imbued with the spirit of Vatican II) is no different than its rejection by the crypto-Protestant and Modernist Roman Rite clergy after Vatican II.
The present day Ukrainian Hierarchy even admits as much since their program is to become "Orthodox " and consequently they rid themselves of Latinizations (which prior to Vatican II was a sign of Catholic unity. As Pope Pius IX declared in the encyclical (Omnem Sollicitudinem) to the Eastern Catholic Hierarchy - Liturgical innovations of this nature proposed for the purpose of purifying the Oriental rites and restoring them to their pristine integrity are a pretext and therefore invalid. The "so-called" pretext used to convert the inhabitants of the Kholm Eparchy to "Orthodoxy" in 1875 is no different from the tactics used today. In fact it's identical.
The Eastern-Rite Slavs, especially from my area of Prjashiv or Presov were never "Orthodox" and were always in amicable contact with their Roman-Rite neighbours. It's the common opinion of Catholics in this area that Greek Catholics (from Presov Eparchy) always knelt during the Divine Liturgy.
I was able to show in the thread (Changes in the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy) that Ukrainians knelt (for the Anaphora and during Holy Communion) for the Divine Liturgy as far back as 1905 (the L'viv Liturgicon or Sluzhebnik).
The following quote shows that Ukrainian Catholics practiced kneeling during the Divine Liturgy as opposed to their "Orthodox" counterparts as far back as 1875. This quote is in regards to the Kholm incident during the pontificate of Pius IX.
From Owen Chadwick, "A History of the Popes, 1830 - 1914" see p. 412.
Another reference from the 2nd Basilian Chapter (1621 A.D.), which formulated the order in which the renewal of monastic vows was to take place: See Maria Takala-Roszczenko "The ‘Latin' within the ‘Greek': The Feast of the Holy Eucharist in the Context of Ruthenian Eastern Rite Liturgical Evolution in the 16th–18th Centuries" See p. 134.
Note that the above chapter must have had the presence of the great Martyr and Saint - Josaphat since he was martyred in 1623. No way to prove this, just my speculation.
More to come .........
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 25, 2017 22:21:16 GMT -5
I do not have the time right now to dig up sources and to deeply analyze yours but I see several problems.
1. You appear to imply that you are emotionally invested in this 2. Emotions cloud judgment because they can cause us to draw false conclusions 3. Your conclusions seem to have been drawn before a gathering of evidence 4. No one has stated that kneeling is not in any way part of the Eastern tradition, or to what degree it was part 5. Your source so far is an Anglican Historian, but he is not dealing with what we are talking about specifically 6. We can agree that postures of the lay people have changed and can change 7. You may not be aware of how the Church treats customs that develop over time and how they can become practice, this must be discussed and taken into account 8. Regardless of motive or the Crisis, the issue at hand is that posture does not invalidate the mass/Divine Liturgy. In fact, we are not even permitted to think any actions of the Church in her rites at any point in time are impious or bad. 9. What is your goal? Do you realize that this has the potential to scandalize the unstudied or less educated? Ultimately, do you want to be responsible for convincing people not to receive the sacraments over a change that does not effect validity or piety? 10. You did have some legitimate concerns in other areas, particularly communicatio in sacris, and I think you should focus your energy on that avenue 11. Regarding the history of the liturgy, I think it advisable to stick to renowned Catholic historians who are experts in their field and to always examine your sources.
I am not arguing against kneeling or for any posture, I am more concerned with what is the breaking point where one needs to withdraw from a chapel, mass center, or parish. These need to be concrete things, which are well supported because they involve the salvation of souls. We have to be very careful how we frame our private judgements because we certainly do not want to be responsible for others denying themselves the sacraments and graces, which could mean the loss of their souls.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 25, 2017 22:36:17 GMT -5
Dear Clotilde
unfortunately point 1-7 are not relevant to the discussion. Except see pt. 5 below. Pt. 5 the Anglican is presenting something that does not benefit him either way, but again when I get the Catholic source I will post it. The last quote is from a Ukrainian scholar, a historian in fact. Pt. 8 Read the words of Pope Pius IX in the quoted encyclical. Pt. 9 A scholarly approach towards the Truth Pt. 10 thank you, I will Pt. 11 I am waiting for an article by a Catholic Ukrainian scholar from my University's library. Thank you for your advice.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 25, 2017 22:46:45 GMT -5
Wenseslav,
What is your goal here? Are you arguing that Catholics "red light" eastern Catholic chuches for the Divine Liturgy?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 25, 2017 22:56:52 GMT -5
We have always knelt for Consecration...and for the holy holy holy and penitential prayer...I proceed up the Aisle...full bow to the Tetrapod cross myself and reverently Kiss the Icon and the cross...then Proceed to Father to recieve ...where I bow down and touch my fingers (which are positioned in the symbols of the Trinity and two Natures of Christ) to the floor and come up..cross my self again (fingers still positioned) open my mouth wide eyes closed...and recieve...is there anything in that that does not show respect for Our Lords Presence?
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 25, 2017 23:08:45 GMT -5
Pacelli,
I will stop posting about this if you want. But in my opinion based on the fact that all Ukrainian Catholic clergy here in Ontario Canada promote communicatio in sacris, I personally as a Catholic would not attend a parish here (in Ontario). I have friends and family in Eastern Europe that say the same about most eparchies in Ukraine I.e at least in those which they reside - as a Traditional Catholic I would not attend. Sorry I do not have journal references but over time I will accumulate parish bulletins and eparchial news. I do not know your situation, plus it's not my business so I have no opinion.
I have no goal, I will stop posting about anything to do with Eastern Catholicism.
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Deleted
Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 23:24:25 GMT -5
I was always curious as to why the Ukranian Church we attended had kneelers but no one ever knelt during the entire Liturgy.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 25, 2017 23:35:35 GMT -5
Pacelli, I will stop posting about this if you want. But in my opinion based on the fact that all Ukrainian Catholic clergy here in Ontario Canada promote communicatio in sacris, I personally as a Catholic would not attend a parish here (in Ontario). I have friends and family in Eastern Europe that say the same about most eparchies in Ukraine I.e at least in those which they reside - as a Traditional Catholic I would not attend. Sorry I do not have journal references but over time I will accumulate parish bulletins and eparchial news. I do not know your situation, plus it's not my business so I have no opinion. I have no goal, I will stop posting about anything to do with Eastern Catholicism. I have no problem with you posting, but I don't see the point unless your saying, "there are some non-essential changes to the Ukrainian rite, that I want to draw attention to, but I do not see it as a defect, therefore there is no reason on these grounds for a Catholic to stop attending." Is that your position, or as I asked, is there something more? If there is more, you are not making it clear here. You admit that you and others you know will not go there. Btw, There is no such thing as a "traditional" Catholic, there is only Catholic. Let me ask you another way, "do you believe these changes (not counting the cases of public communicatio in sacris,) are reasons that Catholics must avoid such Divine Liturgies? If that is not your argument, is this just about academics, with no practical considerations? The only issue you brought up that is actually a grave public scandal and a reason to avoid a particular parish is the public act by the priest of stating that he will give communion to sectarians. Everything else, while it may troublesome if the changes were done for the wrong intent, are not impious practices. They may not be the practices of your youth, but that's irrelevant, they are not bad practices and are not an incentive to impiety.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 0:05:08 GMT -5
Let me put it this way, with all due respect, I have travelled to Ukraine and Slovakia a myriad of times since the fall of Communism. In Ukraine the giving of Holy Communion to schismatics is so prevalent and so engrained in the minds of the Faithful and clergy that people now don't even give it a second thought. Obviously this was not so in the early years i.e. Around 1991. I will say this from experience since I do not have a scholarly article at my disposal showing any statistics except the writing of the Society of St. Josaphat. That we have all these secondary side issues like standing, not following the statutes of the Synod of Zamosc etc is a symptom, an effect of the main cause of a false ecclesiology which I honestly believe (and have seen to a large extent) the entire hierarchy accepts - tooth, nail and sinker.
By all means, create contacts in Ukraine, visit the country, talk to clergy etc and you will come to the same conclusion. Do you honestly think that the Modernists would have put good Catholic men in the episcopacy to see it all fail? I am truly happy that you have found a spiritual oasis in a Ukrainian parish but the hierarchy in Ukraine is not what you think it is, at least not from a truely Catholic point of view. I specifically disagree with your opinion that the Ukrainian hierarchy is in tact. It's simply wishful thinking and I would hope you honestly investigate the situation.
Sincerely
Wenceslav
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 0:19:09 GMT -5
Let me put it this way, with all due respect, I have travelled to Ukraine and Slovakia a myriad of times since the fall of Communism. In Ukraine the giving of Holy Communion to schismatics is so prevalent and so engrained in the minds of the Faithful and clergy that people now don't even give it a second thought. Obviously this was not so in the early years i.e. Around 1991. I will say this from experience since I do not have a scholarly article at my disposal showing any statistics except the writing of the Society of St. Josaphat. That we have all these secondary side issues like standing, not following the statutes of the Synod of Zamosc etc is a symptom, an effect of the main cause of a false ecclesiology which I honestly believe (and have seen to a large extent) the entire hierarchy accepts - tooth, nail and sinker. By all means, create contacts in Ukraine, visit the country, talk to clergy etc and you will come to the same conclusion. Do you honestly think that the Modernists would have put good Catholic men in the episcopacy to see it all fail? I am truly happy that you have found a spiritual oasis in a Ukrainian parish but the hierarchy in Ukraine is not what you think it is, at least not from a truely Catholic point of view. I specifically disagree with your opinion that the Ukrainian hierarchy is in tact. It's simply wishful thinking and I would hope you honestly investigate the situation. Sincerely Wenceslav I am not ignorant of our situation, I can assure you. I know the eastern rites are under attack, and I am not unaware that examples can be found of defection. I am also not disagreeing with your observations, only your apparent conclusions, which I am hoping that you will be more explicit about. I asked you previously if you were asserting that the Ukrainian rite hierarchy was in heresy, and if so, to provide evidence of that assertion by giving evidence of each bishop. You said that you were not asserting that. If your not accusing them of being public heretics, then what charge are you making? If they are not public heretics, schismatics, or apostates, then they remain in their offices. If that is the case, then their hierarchy is intact, at least among those who have not defected.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 0:32:51 GMT -5
Yes you are correct. I did not imply all are heretics. Maybe 1, or 2 like from the Roman Rite i.e. like Schnieder (sp?) or Burke etc.
I did know the Greek Catholic Bishop of Prague (he died in 2005) who was a solid Catholic, refused Balamand, tried to convert Orthodox, hated the NO Liturgy etc. So I suppose there may be someone there although he's not coming up to the forefront, so far. Sorry, by "in tact" I was under the impression you meant there was a solid bulwark of resistance to Modernism. But in reality it's no different than the NO. The only resistance is coming from the Society of St. Josaphat. Although they did have contacts with Vladyka Marusyn in the Vatican but he died recently and he only offered up a "quiet" resistance by agreeing with the stance of the Society.
Cheers
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 0:46:51 GMT -5
I do see writing of the bishops from time to time from Ukrainian Catholic and nondenominational websites. And I have to say all support Balamand, absolutely. If you want to go through every one and translate what they say and how they implement ecumenism, I will gladly do it but it will take time. Does anything from the Society of St. Josaphat count? Anyway, most Bishops have failed at guiding and teaching their flock since Communion to Orthodox is practiced in every parish I've ever been to in the last 10 years and heard about when they are having a flavour of the month ecumenical meeting and I do take interest of what is going on. When a Catholic is engaged to a schismatic they will NOT allow the conversion of the Non-Catholic partner (that's across the board) and they do celebrate the Liturgy with commemorations of heretics like "St.Gregory Palamas"- that makes me shudder.
But I will definitely try.
And by the same token, someone should do the same with NO hierarchy as well. Just because a bishop may serve the NO doesn't necessarily mean he has lost the Faith. Perhaps a project in the making for you?
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 1:49:22 GMT -5
Yes you are correct. I did not imply all are heretics. Maybe 1, or 2 like from the Roman Rite i.e. like Schnieder (sp?) or Burke etc. I did know the Greek Catholic Bishop of Prague (he died in 2005) who was a solid Catholic, refused Balamand, tried to convert Orthodox, hated the NO Liturgy etc. So I suppose there may be someone there although he's not coming up to the forefront, so far. Sorry, by "in tact" I was under the impression you meant there was a solid bulwark of resistance to Modernism. But in reality it's no different than the NO. The only resistance is coming from the Society of St. Josaphat. Although they did have contacts with Vladyka Marusyn in the Vatican but he died recently and he only offered up a "quiet" resistance by agreeing with the stance of the Society. Cheers The bishops in the N.O. appointed post June, 1969 really don't concern me, they may or may not have the Faith, but they are not bishops, and I do not believe their appointments are even legitimate. Other than the old Roman Rite bishops all now elderly, the last refuge of legitimate successors of the apostles are found in the eastern rites. If some have defected from the Faith and are heretics, it would be good to know who they are, and conversely who the remaining Catholics are.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 2:00:48 GMT -5
I do see writing of the bishops from time to time from Ukrainian Catholic and nondenominational websites. And I have to say all support Balamand, absolutely. If you want to go through every one and translate what they say and how they implement ecumenism, I will gladly do it but it will take time. Does anything from the Society of St. Josaphat count? Anyway, most Bishops have failed at guiding and teaching their flock since Communion to Orthodox is practiced in every parish I've ever been to in the last 10 years and heard about when they are having a flavour of the month ecumenical meeting and I do take interest of what is going on. When a Catholic is engaged to a schismatic they will NOT allow the conversion of the Non-Catholic partner (that's across the board) and they do celebrate the Liturgy with commemorations of heretics like "St.Gregory Palamas"- that makes me shudder. But I will definitely try. And by the same token, someone should do the same with NO hierarchy as well. Just because a bishop may serve the NO doesn't necessarily mean he has lost the Faith. Perhaps a project in the making for you? I agree with you that there are many negligent bishops, all of them in fact to the best of my knowledge, even the remaining Roman rite bishops. The apostolic successors had all stood down and allowed the enemy to enter and destroy. That conduct is horrible and deserving of censure, but so long as the bishops do not actually defect by publicly adhering to heresy, joining the schism, or apostasy, they keep their offices. I would not ask you to spend the immense time to research each bishop. It's not just the Ukrainian rite, its all 23 eastern rites that need analysis. It's up to you if you wish to do this. If I had the time and resources to speak with the remaining lawful Roman Rite bishops, I would. I can tell you that I knew of one, a Pius XII appointee living in retirement. Some people I knew visited him and their opinion was that he had the Faith, he had not defected. This was only a couple years ago. Unfortunately, this bishop passed away.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 17:27:21 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli, Perhaps the following will help in understanding the extreme depth of the Crisis in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Below is an excerpt from an interesting article from the Rector of the Theological Academy of L'viv (rector during the 2000s), Fr. Michael Dymyd. LINKThere is a lot of gobbledygook (like a typical NO presbyter) so I beg your patience but it confirms everything I said in the above posts. With respect to the Holy Eucharist (Section 8.3) - an example of institutionalized (by the Ukrainian Bishops and theologians) Communicatio in Sacris ( a logical conclusion of the false and heretical ecclesiology of VII) :
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