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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 5, 2016 9:28:07 GMT -5
They rarely go that far, but for what it's worth one of my friends who attended an Indult Mass in the 1990s recalls having to sign a form that certified one's acceptance of the legitimacy of Vatican II and the liturgical reform. Damaged Good's friend's experience having to sign a "form" certifying their acceptance of the legitimacy of Vatican II and the liturgical reforms, shows the lack of continuity or consistency in the whole Vatican II, Novus Ordo, and "Indult" mess. We desperately need a true Pope or else the end is very near (just my opinion). I am sorry if I made anyone feel un-at-peace by my comments here. I was just trying to help... No one means to personally attack you, Veronica, and you are right that it is easier and probably better just to avoid anything attached with the modern "popes". I think that, perhaps, God has allowed everything to become as bad as it is in order to make us reach out to Him and beg for mercy. He is the only one who can make the situation in the Church better, but we can at least pray and do penance in order to help make that time come sooner... I am reminded of the words of Our Blessed Mother at Fatima... That at a point when there seems no hope, then shall her Immaculate Heart Triumph. So, as weird as it might sound, the sooner things get to the point where there seems no hope; the sooner they will get better. If all Catholics spent as much time praying for the Restoration of Christendom as they do debating with each other, imagine how much sooner God might help things to get better... I pray every day for God to raise up the Church to Her former days of glory... Life is a struggle, and our world has become a mess... But, there is always hope as long as we trust in God and do our best to follow His will and commandments. (If you are interested, I recently wrote a fictional story on the Restoration of Christendom, in order to help me have more hope... Here is a link, if you are interested: catholicpoemsandstories.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-restoration-of-catholic-church.html) Keep fighting and may God bless you! Sincerely, Rita
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 10:32:26 GMT -5
Rita - Sorry if I have come across too harshly and please don't think that it is directed at you. I do generally feel that I have been "judged" for my attendance at an "Indult" Mass.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2016 15:13:00 GMT -5
It was definately John Paul II, not Benedict, who put the stipulation on the priests that he "authorized" to say the mass according to the 1962 missal.
Pretending for a minute that these guys did have authority, Benedict's law would have ended John Paul's insult, (oh I meant indult), and with that John Paul's requirements on the priests.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 5, 2016 19:24:47 GMT -5
Dear Veronica, I don't mean at all to judge your dispositions or to find fault with people who are doing the best they can with the information they have. It is easy to go wrong with good dispositions, as I know from my own sad experience. It's not likely you've made any blunders as big as mine! I just thought it would be helpful to provide the texts that Rita was referring to. They are one reason why some traditionalists refused to attend the Indult Mass under the old conditions made by John Paul II. We can indeed be held responsible for things we don't know, if the ignorance is our own fault or if our conduct still deserves blame in spite of the ignorance. For example, it's no defense in a secular court to claim ignorance of the law, despite the fact that very few people know it in detail. I don't say this to make you scrupulous, but it deserves to be pointed out because wrong ideas about ignorance are common nowadays. Some people even say that "ignorance is the eighth sacrament." Catechisms and theology books say, on the other hand, that ignorance can be a sin, and a cause of sin, because we are bound to learn what we need to know to fulfill our duties of state ( link). Sometimes this knowledge is not available, and then God will judge us according to our good will in the circumstances; but this is very far from saying that ignorance is a blanket excuse from sin. The past is past; what matters now is to live well in the time that remains to us. I am in no way "saying that ignorance is a blanket excuse for sin". All I am saying is that after researching and learning to the best of my ability and the knowledge that I had attained at the time, I did not know or was I aware of certain things. It is impossible given the state of the Novus Ordo mess to be aware of every obstacle that stands in our road all at once. I am not looking for a "pass", I'm just stating the facts of the situation I found myself in at the time. There are twists and turns and wolves in sheep's clothing everywhere seeking the ruination of souls. We live in a very perilous and dangerous time and the "Traditionalists" are forever finding fault with one another. I am in no way trying to find an excuse for "sin". I am NOT a genius, it is impossible for me to learn all this theological stuff even at the rate I would like to. I am an average person with an average IQ. I do not possess a college degree, nor even a Catholic education for that matter. God knows I wish I could learn more, faster, but unfortunately I have to learn at and with the capacity and abilities that was bestowed upon me. Sometimes, experience is the best teacher and not just theological books. Also, a good dose of common sense goes along way too!! LIVE and LEARN. Also, I do not listen, believe or accept anything that comes out of an anti-Pope's mouth or from his writing pen!! Psalm 74( DRB) O God, why hast thou cast us off unto the end: why is thy wrath enkindled against the sheep of thy pasture? Remember thy congregation, which thou hast possessed from the beginning. The sceptre of thy inheritance which thou hast redeemed: mount Sion in which thou hast dwelt. Lift up thy hands against their pride unto the end; see what things the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary.
And they that hate thee have made their boasts, in the midst of thy solemnity. They have set up their ensigns for signs,and they knew not both in the going out and on the highest top. As with axes in a wood of trees, they have cut down at once the gates thereof, with axe and hatchet they have brought it down. They have set fire to thy sanctuary: they have defiled the dwelling place of thy name on the earth.
They said in their heart, the whole kindred of them together: Let us abolish all the festival days of God from the land.Our signs we have not seen, there is now no prophet: and he will know us no more. How long, O God, shall the enemy reproach: is the adversary to provoke thy name for ever?Why dost thou turn away thy hand: and thy right hand out of the midst of thy bosom for ever ?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 5, 2016 19:25:34 GMT -5
Rita - Sorry if I have come across too harshly and please don't think that it is directed at you. I do generally feel that I have been "judged" for my attendance at an "Indult" Mass. Not by me and thats all that matters here
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 5, 2016 20:52:37 GMT -5
Rita - Sorry if I have come across too harshly and please don't think that it is directed at you. I do generally feel that I have been "judged" for my attendance at an "Indult" Mass. As long as you are fine and not offended, then I am fine. It is true that traditional Catholics tend to bicker too much sometimes and not realize that most people have to take little steps to get to where God wants them to be. It is not like a person can become perfect and learn everything in one day! I know that it took we quite a few steps and years for that matter before I found a proper balance. So, just keep your head up, trust in God, and He will help you obtain and understand all you need. God bless!
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 5, 2016 20:55:30 GMT -5
Rita - Sorry if I have come across too harshly and please don't think that it is directed at you. I do generally feel that I have been "judged" for my attendance at an "Indult" Mass. Not by me and thats all that matters here Lots of laughter... Good point!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 7:32:08 GMT -5
It has been alluded to that I have "sinned" by attending an "Indult" Mass, with a valid Priest, who unbeknownst to me was mixing the Novus Ordo Hosts with the Latin Mass Hosts. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
Veronica
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 6, 2016 11:57:08 GMT -5
It has been alluded to that I have "sinned" by attending an "Indult" Mass, with a valid Priest, who unbeknownst to me was mixing the Novus Ordo Hosts with the Latin Mass Hosts. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Veronica Pray tell who???
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 12:42:30 GMT -5
Not you!
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Post by RitaMarita on Dec 6, 2016 17:01:25 GMT -5
It has been alluded to that I have "sinned" by attending an "Indult" Mass, with a valid Priest, who unbeknownst to me was mixing the Novus Ordo Hosts with the Latin Mass Hosts. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Veronica Dear Veronica, I am not sure who said this, but they probably thought that you knew about the mixing of the hosts... And, I am sure you can see why it would be advisable to avoid. Yet, I am not sure if anyone can officially claim it as a sin, because no valid pope has ever officially condemned the novus ordo or made a decree saying that it has to be avoided by the faithful under pain of sin. As weird as it may sound... One benefit of not having a reigning pope in this day and age is that it grants a bit of slack to those who might get confused with everything... Try not to take all of this too much too heart. Everyone here wishes you well! God bless! Rita
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 21:28:40 GMT -5
Rita -
Points well taken.
Veronica
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 7, 2016 6:32:03 GMT -5
Yeah no one calls other members sinners around here...except themselves. You must have misunderstood.
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