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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 23:54:25 GMT -5
Yes, I will be going to the Ukranians. The Ukranians is where I first attended a couple of times upon my return to the Church. I guess I should have kept going there, but I felt "out of place". (See where my "feelings" got me!!) My mom has a good attitude about church...she doesn't even notice others...she says at Church...its just her and God. Voxxkowalski - That is a great attitude your Mom has concerning the people in the Church. However, after my experience with this Priest, I'm afraid I will have any Priest under a microscope!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 27, 2016 7:35:36 GMT -5
Not necessary in the DL...further you will be missing out on many graces if you allow your mind to be occupied on other things than God. Many a trad has been derailed by becoming oriented on policing the Church.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 7:47:09 GMT -5
Not necessary in the DL...further you will be misding out on many graces if you allow your mind to be occupied on other things than God. Good to know it is "not necessary" in the DL. Right now I am still recovering from the "Bogus" Latin Mass I have been attending for 2 yrs!! Why on earth would the Priest use the Novus Ordo Hosts in the Latin Mass?? It just doesn't compute with me. The reason for attendance at the Latin Mass is because I detest the Novus Ordo and want nothing to do with it! I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who think because they are attending an "Indult" Mass with a valid Priest they take it for granted that the Hosts are from the Latin Mass and not the Novus Ordo! If I hadn't run across this Forum a couple of weeks ago and subsequently joined thereby giving me access to other Trads to communicate with, I would still be attending the "Bogus" Latin Mass, not knowing any different!
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 27, 2016 10:10:26 GMT -5
Not necessary in the DL...further you will be missing out on many graces if you allow your mind to be occupied on other things than God. Many a trad has been derailed by becoming oriented on policing the Church. I agree, the issues Catholics have to face in the Roman Rite are for the most part not present in the Ukrainian rite.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 27, 2016 10:28:07 GMT -5
Not necessary in the DL...further you will be misding out on many graces if you allow your mind to be occupied on other things than God. Good to know it is "not necessary" in the DL. Right now I am still recovering from the "Bogus" Latin Mass I have been attending for 2 yrs!! Why on earth would the Priest use the Novus Ordo Hosts in the Latin Mass?? It just doesn't compute with me. The reason for attendance at the Latin Mass is because I detest the Novus Ordo and want nothing to do with it! I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who think because they are attending an "Indult" Mass with a valid Priest that take it for granted that the Hosts are from the Latin Mass and not the Novus Ordo! If I hadn't run across this Forum a couple of weeks ago and subsequently joined thereby giving me access to other Trads to communicate with, I would still be attending the "Bogus" Latin Mass, not knowing any different! The most likely answer is that these priests equate the Novus Ordo with the Roman Rite of Mass. They may dislike the Novus Ordo, but they think it is valid. For the priests who understand their theology better, they put their trust in secondary infallibility which protects the liturgical rites of the Church from invalidity, error, or impiety. The trouble with their position is that it's foundation rests on only one point, namely whether Paul VI was Pope. If that falls, their entire argument falls, along with the entire Vatican II sect: Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, the new ordination and consecration rites, ecumenism, the inversion of the purpose of marriage, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 11:26:21 GMT -5
Good to know it is "not necessary" in the DL. Right now I am still recovering from the "Bogus" Latin Mass I have been attending for 2 yrs!! Why on earth would the Priest use the Novus Ordo Hosts in the Latin Mass?? It just doesn't compute with me. The reason for attendance at the Latin Mass is because I detest the Novus Ordo and want nothing to do with it! I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who think because they are attending an "Indult" Mass with a valid Priest that take it for granted that the Hosts are from the Latin Mass and not the Novus Ordo! If I hadn't run across this Forum a couple of weeks ago and subsequently joined thereby giving me access to other Trads to communicate with, I would still be attending the "Bogus" Latin Mass, not knowing any different! The most likely answer is that these priests equate the Novus Ordo with the Roman Rite of Mass. They may dislike the Novus Ordo, but they think it is valid. For the priests who understand their theology better, they put their trust in secondary infallibility which protects the liturgical rites of the Church from invalidity, error, or impiety. The trouble with their position is that it's foundation rests on only one point, namely whether Paul VI was Pope. If that falls, their entire argument falls, along with the entire Vatican II sect: Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, the new ordination and consecration rites, ecumenism, the inversion of the purpose of marriage, etc. What is "secondary infallibility"? Regarding the "Indult" Mass I was attending, didn't the Priest create a new kind of a Mass by mixing the Novus Ordo Hosts into the Latin Mass? Could that be an abomination in God's sight, as it is a mixture?
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 27, 2016 12:16:36 GMT -5
The most likely answer is that these priests equate the Novus Ordo with the Roman Rite of Mass. They may dislike the Novus Ordo, but they think it is valid. For the priests who understand their theology better, they put their trust in secondary infallibility which protects the liturgical rites of the Church from invalidity, error, or impiety. The trouble with their position is that it's foundation rests on only one point, namely whether Paul VI was Pope. If that falls, their entire argument falls, along with the entire Vatican II sect: Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, the new ordination and consecration rites, ecumenism, the inversion of the purpose of marriage, etc. What is "secondary infallibility"? Regarding the "Indult" Mass I was attending didn't the Priest create a new kind of a Mass by mixing the Novus Ordo Hosts into the Latin Mass? Could that be an abomination in God's sight, as it is a mixture? Veronica, Secondary infallibility is explained as To your second point, objectively yes, the Novus Ordo, in my opinion is a disfigured mess that claims to be the Catholic mass, and in my opinion is most likely invalid, along with the priests ordained in the Pauline rite. The trouble is that none of this has been authoritatively settled, so the priest may subjectively be acting in good faith. As I said above, the root of all of this is the status of Paul VI, the entire foundation of the Conciliar sect is built on his legitimacy. Once that falls, it all falls. Btw, fwiw, I second Vox' advice to you, the Ukrainian rite will give you a place of peace where you do not have to worry about the validity of the sacraments, and can focus, like Vox' mother, on God and growing in your spiritual life, as we all should, by receiving Our Lord sacramentally, and not having to be concerned with the Novus Ordo mess.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 27, 2016 12:22:40 GMT -5
Eric wrote:
The terms, "Motu Mass," and "indult Mass," are bogus terms, having no place in Catholic theology or law. The only place for them might be in informal slang. A Catholic determines whether he can go to mass based on the offerer. Is the offerer a Catholic? How can this be determined? If the priest has been condemned by authority or has joined a known sect, then Catholics are duty bound to avoid him, and any prayer with him would be communicatio in sacris.
The motives of the Conciliar leaders is irrelevant to the theological principles that are involved. It's possible that John Paul II and Benedict had an evil motive, but their decisions still have no impact on whether a Catholic can approach a validly ordained priest who is not under censure to assist at his mass in the approved Catholic rite.
Eric wrote:
The 1962 missal did not make any significant change to the rite itself, no matter what some may say. The most significant change was adding St. Joseph to the canon, hardly anything that would affect the validity or cause a disincentive to piety.
The onus is on the accuser to prove that the offerer has left the Church and has joined a sect, or as you call it, "a local Church that is not Catholic." If the priest, the offerer, has joined a sect, a Catholic is forbidden to pray with him, including assisting at his mass. This would be a classic case of communicatio in sacris.
It appears to me that what you are doing is this: you are self-declaring the Conciliar sect a declared or known sect, (an act of authority, or the establishment of a fact that is not generally recognized) thereby leading to your next logical premise, that those in the sect are to be presumed guilty, and from that it is to be presumed that the prayer with those you claim are members of this sect is an act of communicatio in sacris as described in canon 1258.
Eric wrote:
Yes of course, but the canon is talking about non-Catholics? Under what authority are you declaring priests that are claiming to be Catholic and not under censure, non-Catholics?
If you are going to argue that you believe we must avoid a certain priest due to heresy, please name the priest and provide the evidence. Realize, however, that the private determination of heresy in another man, is just that private, and does not establish an authoritative judgment or sentence against the priest.
Eric wrote:
Possibly, but that is not for another to decide, otherwise one is de facto establishing a law that binds others in an area where the Church has not bound. Every Catholic must evaluate the danger of scandal, and act accordingly.
Eric wrote:
No, the issue at hand is whether one is going to a priest that the Church allows one to go to who is still known to be a faithful Catholic, or at a minimum to a priest who is an undeclared heretic.
If others take an incorrect impression of your motives, then it is your duty to explain it to them, so as to avoid scandal. A simple statement should alleviate the scandal, "I am here to assist at Mass and receive communion, as is my right under the law. One of the two next assertions should come next " (1) To the best of my knowledge the priest is not a heretic or (2) I believe the priest is a heretic, but he is not under censure." Next, "I have evaluated the risk of scandal to myself or those under my charge, and I am of the belief that I am safe."
I leave off with St. Thomas:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 14:53:15 GMT -5
Yes, I intend to go to the Ukranians (which is where I started out originally 2 yrs ago). Right now my main concern is trying to process the fallout and repercussions from attending a "Bogus" Latin Mass for the last 2 yrs. I have no where else to turn to but this Forum to "get me through" this process. If I have surpassed any time allotments given the nature of this process on my part, I apologize.
Veronica54
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 27, 2016 16:02:41 GMT -5
Yes, I intend to go to the Ukranians (which is where I started out originally 2 yrs ago). Right now my main concern is trying to process the fallout and repercussions from attending a "Bogus" Latin Mass for the last 2 yrs. I have no where else to turn to but this Forum to "get me through" this process. If I have surpassed any time allotments given the nature of this process on my part, I apologize. Veronica54 There is zero fallout...your eyes are open now go and Taste the Lord and see that He is sweet. You can avoid being scandalized by choosing to thank God for opening your eyes and move on. Dont obsess simply kick the dust from your shoes and move on...life is too short.
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Post by Clotilde on Nov 27, 2016 16:13:40 GMT -5
Yes, I intend to go to the Ukranians (which is where I started out originally 2 yrs ago). Right now my main concern is trying to process the fallout and repercussions from attending a "Bogus" Latin Mass for the last 2 yrs. I have no where else to turn to but this Forum to "get me through" this process. If I have surpassed any time allotments given the nature of this process on my part, I apologize. Veronica54 It takes awhile to find your footing. Dont think of the mass you attended as Bogus, the priest's Communion was certainly real. At least you were supplied the graces because you were mistaken in good faith, and you were among the presence of angels. Try to move yourself to view those duped by the Novus Ordo in the most charitable light. I know it is very tempting to be upset and have misdirected anger. They are decieved but remember that perhaps there is a reason they cannot understand the Crisis, maybe it would lead to their damnation due to scandal. We don't know. Today is the first Sunday of Advent, I would advise you to spend some time immersing yourself in our fine Advent traditions, there are many in the East and West. Since you said you have just recently returned to the practice of your faith, you might find this helpful to your prayer life and it will enable you to live closely to the liturigical year.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 27, 2016 17:10:51 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 6:04:00 GMT -5
Yes, I intend to go to the Ukranians (which is where I started out originally 2 yrs ago). Right now my main concern is trying to process the fallout and repercussions from attending a "Bogus" Latin Mass for the last 2 yrs. I have no where else to turn to but this Forum to "get me through" this process. If I have surpassed any time allotments given the nature of this process on my part, I apologize. Veronica54 There is zero fallout...your eyes are open now go and Taste the Lord and see that He is sweet. You can avoid being scandalized by choosing to thank God for opening your eyes and move on. Dont obsess simply kick the dust from your shoes and move on...life is too short. Voxxkowalski - Thanks. I did "kick the dust from my shoes" the day I walked out of the Church! I notice that the word "scandal" or "scandalized" is being used a lot. I don't understand the meaning of the word "scandal" as it is being used here. I only understand the use of the word "scandal" as it is used in the "worldly" sense. Would you mind explaining the meaning of "scandal" as it is being used here? (Please excuse my ignorance but I had no Catholic education of any kind and very little in the way of Catechesis, but I did receive Confirmation). I am trying my best to learn as much as I can to make up for lost time and that is why I ask so many questions.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 6:06:41 GMT -5
Yes, I intend to go to the Ukranians (which is where I started out originally 2 yrs ago). Right now my main concern is trying to process the fallout and repercussions from attending a "Bogus" Latin Mass for the last 2 yrs. I have no where else to turn to but this Forum to "get me through" this process. If I have surpassed any time allotments given the nature of this process on my part, I apologize. Veronica54 It takes awhile to find your footing. Dont think of the mass you attended as Bogus, the priest's Communion was certainly real. At least you were supplied the graces because you were mistaken in good faith, and you were among the presence of angels. Try to move yourself to view those duped by the Novus Ordo in the most charitable light. I know it is very tempting to be upset and have misdirected anger. They are decieved but remember that perhaps there is a reason they cannot understand the Crisis, maybe it would lead to their damnation due to scandal. We don't know. Today is the first Sunday of Advent, I would advise you to spend some time immersing yourself in our fine Advent traditions, there are many in the East and West. Since you said you have just recently returned to the practice of your faith, you might find this helpful to your prayer life and it will enable you to live closely to the liturigical year. Clotilde - Thank you so very much for your gracious and kind words!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 28, 2016 12:07:40 GMT -5
There is zero fallout...your eyes are open now go and Taste the Lord and see that He is sweet. You can avoid being scandalized by choosing to thank God for opening your eyes and move on. Dont obsess simply kick the dust from your shoes and move on...life is too short. Voxxkowalski - Thanks. I did "kick the dust from my shoes" the day I walked out of the Church! I notice that the word "scandal" or "scandalized" is being used a lot. I don't understand the meaning of the word "scandal" as it is being used here. I only understand the use of the word "scandal" as it is used in the "worldly" sense. Would you mind explaining the meaning of "scandal" as it is being used here? (Please excuse my ignorance but I had no Catholic education of any kind and very little in the way of Catechesis, but I did receive Confirmation). I am trying my best to learn as much as I can to make up for lost time and that is why I ask so many questions. I think clotide or pacelli are better suited to answer this satisfactorally
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