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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 19:23:33 GMT -5
I would like to thank everyone that helped me get through the "Indult", Novus Ordo Host mess. I really feel like a "ton of bricks" has been lifted off my shoulders. No more trying to find out and research valid Priestly ordinations, valid episcopal consecrations, etc., etc. I am happily leaving the "Indult" mess behind and looking forward to going to the Ukranian Church. It seems that anything the Vatican II false church is involved with can't be trusted. Thanks again!!
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 28, 2016 20:00:33 GMT -5
I would like to thank everyone that helped me get through the "Indult", Novus Ordo Host mess. I really feel like a "ton of bricks" has been lifted off my shoulders. No more trying to find out and research valid Priestly ordinations, valid episcopal consecrations, etc., etc. I am happily leaving the "Indult" mess behind and looking forward to going to the Ukranian Church. It seems that anything the Vatican II false church is involved with can't be trusted. Thanks again!! You are very welcome. The situation in the Roman Rite is abysmal, I am happy that you have found your way to a safe harbor in this storm.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 28, 2016 21:15:06 GMT -5
I recomend Veronica that you dont attempt to share your negative experiences with the Ukranians....they most likely will not understand...just offer that your there because the DL is the most conveinent for you. Remember Our Lord is all that matters.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 22:34:44 GMT -5
I recomend Veronica that you dont attempt to share your negative experiences with the Ukranians....they most likely will not understand...just offer that your there because the DL is the most conveinent for you. Remember Our Lord is all that matters. Thanks for the advice!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 9:03:22 GMT -5
I read somewhere recently that in the "end times" that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will cease. Is that was is happening in the Church as a result of the Novus Ordo and the institution of the "Indult? That only "Faith" will prevail. I believe the article was referencing prophecy from the Book of Daniel in regards to the ceasing of the Mass. Just wondering....🤔
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Post by RitaMarita on Nov 29, 2016 18:27:20 GMT -5
I would like to thank everyone that helped me get through the "Indult", Novus Ordo Host mess. I really feel like a "ton of bricks" has been lifted off my shoulders. No more trying to find out and research valid Priestly ordinations, valid episcopal consecrations, etc., etc. I am happily leaving the "Indult" mess behind and looking forward to going to the Ukranian Church. It seems that anything the Vatican II false church is involved with can't be trusted. Thanks again!! My family are all conservative novus ordo attendies. We even went to the Indult Latin Mass at times when I was growing up, occasionally even by priests who were ordained before Vatican II. Yet, the whole situation is sort of a mess with the distributing of hosts from the novus ordo and Latin Mass all combined together. Eventually, I made the decision when I was 17 that I could no longer participate at even the Indult (a lot of the priests where ordained in the novus ordo) and ever since I have been 18 I have been a regular Tridintine Mass attendie. It took awhile to find a non-cultish place and figure out all the ins and outs of traditional Catholicsim. Yet, I am grateful to God for having led me to where I am now! The struggle was ever so worth it, for now I understand everything better! Deo Gratias! You seem to have a good heart. So, as long as you persevere, I am sure that God will certainly guide you to the truth and help you through life to the end of your days! So, keep fighting, Veronica! Be strong and may God bless you!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 18:40:40 GMT -5
I would like to thank everyone that helped me get through the "Indult", Novus Ordo Host mess. I really feel like a "ton of bricks" has been lifted off my shoulders. No more trying to find out and research valid Priestly ordinations, valid episcopal consecrations, etc., etc. I am happily leaving the "Indult" mess behind and looking forward to going to the Ukranian Church. It seems that anything the Vatican II false church is involved with can't be trusted. Thanks again!! My family are all conservative novus ordo attendies. We even went to the Indult Latin Mass at times when I was growing up, occasionally even by priests who were ordained before Vatican II. Yet, the whole situation is sort of a mess with the distributing of hosts from the novus ordo and Latin Mass all combined together. Eventually, I made the decision when I was 17 that I could no longer participate at even the Indult (a lot of the priests where ordained in the novus ordo) and ever since I have been 18 I have been a regular Tridintine Mass attendie. It took awhile to find a non-cultish place and figure out all the ins and outs of traditional Catholicsim. Yet, I am grateful to God for having led me to where I am now! The struggle was ever so worth it, for now I understand everything better! Deo Gratias! You seem to have a good heart. So, along as you persevere, I am sure that God will certainly guide you to the truth and help you through life to the end of your days! So, keep fighting, Veronica! Be strong and may God bless you! SenoritaRita - Thanks so much for sharing with me and for your encouraging words!!
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Post by RitaMarita on Nov 29, 2016 18:42:21 GMT -5
My family are all conservative novus ordo attendies. We even went to the Indult Latin Mass at times when I was growing up, occasionally even by priests who were ordained before Vatican II. Yet, the whole situation is sort of a mess with the distributing of hosts from the novus ordo and Latin Mass all combined together. Eventually, I made the decision when I was 17 that I could no longer participate at even the Indult (a lot of the priests where ordained in the novus ordo) and ever since I have been 18 I have been a regular Tridintine Mass attendie. It took awhile to find a non-cultish place and figure out all the ins and outs of traditional Catholicsim. Yet, I am grateful to God for having led me to where I am now! The struggle was ever so worth it, for now I understand everything better! Deo Gratias! You seem to have a good heart. So, along as you persevere, I am sure that God will certainly guide you to the truth and help you through life to the end of your days! So, keep fighting, Veronica! Be strong and may God bless you! SenoritaRita - Thanks so much for sharing with me and for your encouraging words!! You are most welcome! I know how hard the transition is especially if one's family is not in agreement! I am here for you if you ever need anything!
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 30, 2016 15:29:48 GMT -5
Eric,
I am now ready to finish my response to your post to me. I apologize for the piecemeal approach to answering, but I just do not have time to thoughtfully respond in one sitting to your points. I am trying very hard to give you the best answers I can, as I know that if I am unable to convince you on this matter, that you will be left in a very spiritually disadvantaged position during this crisis. All error has consequences, but this particular matter has very grave consequences, which I can elaborate on if you would like.
In addition to my posts, I have posted numerous resources related to this In the Resourse section, that I hope you may have time to read through. Among these, I have asked John Daly to weigh in on an old thread on the Bellarmine Forums, which is directly relevant to what we are discussing.
Eric wrote:
The permission is general, it is only particular circumstances that may deter a Catholic, such as the risk of scandal to oneself or those under their charge.
Eric wrote:
Pope Martin V, the 1917 Code and the theologians never added the additional qualifications you are adding. I would argue that the Church's being used are Catholic Churches as they are properties of the Church which are being illegally used by an undeclared sect, and we cannot even be certain in many cases of who is part of this sect and who is not . The churches would not lose their blessing due to the protestanized-sectarian liturgy being used in them.
Eric wrote:
There are a couple of points that need to be made here:
1. The charge of heresy against both the priests and the laity in these cases is based on an assumption, not a fact. Unless you can provide evidence against such persons, the charge is rash and unsubstantiated.
2. The first factor in deciding if one can go to a mass is determining if the offerer, (the priest saying the mass) is a Catholic, at least in the legal sense, meaning that the Church has not publicly and authoritatively determined this as a fact.. In former times, it was easy, as all priests saying mass at a local church or other approved place, would have been commissioned to do so, and would have been governed by their local bishop, this being the underlying basis of the Sunday/holyday obligation to hear mass. In our times, things are more complicated, but the law is still clear on what we are allowed to do.
3. As I have said before, and I think this is the underlying root of the problem, is that you are treating the Conciliar church as a declared sect, therefore making the people entangled in it, presumed guilty, and therefore outside the Church. The trouble is that there is no basis for this, the sect, its leaders, and its doctrines have not yet been condemned, so it remains an undeclared sect, and due to this, we cannot assume Catholics have joined this undeclared sect.
4. Common sense is to follow the law, and not add to it. The Church has given us this right, and the choice to not make use of it is a grave decision. The choice to not receive our Lord sacramentally when one has the opportunity and the right to do so has dire consequences.
I leave off with this:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 5:06:10 GMT -5
I am having great difficulty with a family member who doesn't understand why I won't go to the "Indult" Mass any longer. They just don't understand and I don't know if it is the way I am trying to explain it to them. Any suggestions on how to explain it? (The family member is Novus Ordo but would attend the "Indult" with me).
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 2, 2016 6:12:24 GMT -5
I am having great difficulty with a family member who doesn't understand why I won't go to the "Indult" Mass any longer. They just don't understand and I don't know if it is the way I am trying to explain it to them. Any suggestions on how to explain it? (The family member is Novus Ordo but would attend the "Indult" with me). Not being sarcastic....but nobody said this would be easy...you are experiencing the cross. Just tell them its not Catholic enough. The problem is for them to agree they must look at their own practices. Human nature (pride) is working against you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 6:36:31 GMT -5
I am having great difficulty with a family member who doesn't understand why I won't go to the "Indult" Mass any longer. They just don't understand and I don't know if it is the way I am trying to explain it to them. Any suggestions on how to explain it? (The family member is Novus Ordo but would attend the "Indult" with me). Not being sarcastic....but nobody said this would be easy...you are experiencing the cross. Just tell them its not Catholic enough. The problem is for them to agree they must look at their own practices. Human nature (pride) is working against you. I am the first to admit that I am only human - I don't think I am anything but human - and full of defects.
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Post by EricH on Dec 2, 2016 9:07:24 GMT -5
Eric, I am now ready to finish my response to your post to me. I apologize for the piecemeal approach to answering, but I just do not have time to thoughtfully respond in one sitting to your points. I am trying very hard to give you the best answers I can, as I know that if I am unable to convince you on this matter, that you will be left in a very spiritually disadvantaged position during this crisis. Thank you very much for your replies. The delay is no problem at all, as I need time to think about things anyway. Are you planning to reply also to my last several paragraphs, including the quotations from Fr. Cekada and from James Larrabee? The question about the Mass obligation is a good one, I think. I will keep thinking about your replies, but so far I think we are talking past each other. From the fact that the Vatican II religion and its adherents have not been formally condemned, you draw conclusions which, as I see it, are unreasonable in practice, present a danger to souls, and imply that the Church has defected. Many traditionalists say this very thing about my own conclusions, and I don't have a convincing reply. I think the root of these disagreements is in the approach to the crisis -- what questions to ask first, what presumptions to make. Frankly I think it is absurd that people decided in the 1970s that the legitimate Catholic pastors weren't providing acceptable churches, priests, sacraments, etc. so whoever can should just do so himself. Yet it is considered crazy to even call this into question. To help me understand your view, could you say if you agree with this: "There is no such thing as a group of people, a society of men, a local church, or a congregation that belongs to the Vatican II sect. There are only individuals."
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 2, 2016 9:12:17 GMT -5
Not being sarcastic....but nobody said this would be easy...you are experiencing the cross. Just tell them its not Catholic enough. The problem is for them to agree they must look at their own practices. Human nature (pride) is working against you. I am the first to admit that I am only human - I don't think I am anything but human - and full of defects. No not YOUR pride....but the stubborn pride of others when you try to explain what were doing. Remember many folks are still blind as to the depth of the crisis. Many if not most are very happy with a shallow and simplistic view of the Church. The subject of heresy and apostasy...defects in sacraments...invalid priests sounds like science fiction. I totally empathise with you. Its totaly frustrating.
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Post by Clotilde on Dec 2, 2016 11:12:09 GMT -5
I am having great difficulty with a family member who doesn't understand why I won't go to the "Indult" Mass any longer. They just don't understand and I don't know if it is the way I am trying to explain it to them. Any suggestions on how to explain it? (The family member is Novus Ordo but would attend the "Indult" with me). Just remember that you don't have to explain it. People are way too nosy and demand to know things that are none of their business, and the flip side is that many people mistakenly think they need to explain their actions to others. But if you need an explanation, tell them that you are unsure whether the hosts in the tabernacle, which are consecrated at the NO, are actually truly consecrated. You are uncertain about the words on the consecration in the NO, the holy orders of any NO priest, and the episcopal consecration of any bishop under the revisions of Paul VI, aka Montini, because you have serious suspicions that he was not pope. That is the most concise way to put it.
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