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Post by kim on Feb 10, 2017 2:09:15 GMT -5
That's what my priest says. Well he is wrong and he is more than welcome here to defend his wrongness. I personally think this is just a confusing time and we are just doing the best we can. I have a trad chapel available. If I did not, I would probably be doing exactly what you're doing Vox.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 10, 2017 9:37:16 GMT -5
I meant wrong factually not morally...I wasnt judgeing
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Post by kim on Feb 24, 2017 9:53:31 GMT -5
So if you attend a valid Latin or Eastern rite Mass that is una cum Frank, do you have to keep your sedevacantism secret? Do you have to go undercover, so to speak? What do you do if the priest starts singing Frank's praises or quoting him? Would some priests throw you out if they found out your position?
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Post by micah1199 on Feb 24, 2017 10:03:13 GMT -5
My priest said that the SSPX has a number of priests who don't put Frank in the canon. I am not sure how to find this out. I will ask him next time.
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Post by kim on Feb 24, 2017 12:05:18 GMT -5
My priest said that the SSPX has a number of priests who don't put Frank in the canon. I am not sure how to find this out. I will ask him next time. Regular sspx or r and r's?
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 24, 2017 12:35:25 GMT -5
So if you attend a valid Latin or Eastern rite Mass that is una cum Frank, do you have to keep your sedevacantism secret? Do you have to go undercover, so to speak? What do you do if the priest starts singing Frank's praises or quoting him? Would some priests throw you out if they found out your position? They are all una cum Francis, so if one is going to go to an eastern rite, keep that in mind. I think what one has to do is think about why you go to mass in the first place. It's not the time to talk, to get into theological discussions, etc., it's the time to worship God according to the manner that He wants to be worshipped, to gain graces for being at mass, and lastly to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. I am not saying to be rude to the other parishioners, but you don't need to speak with them, just go and worship God and strengthen your soul with grace. If you do want to socialize, that's fine, you are under no obligation to get into complex theological discussions with people who will most likely misunderstand what you are saying or not have a clue to what you are referring. In my opinion, this is not about keeping a secret, its about focusing on what is important for your salvation, and just getting to mass and not worrying about controversy while there, just your soul. Leave that for these forums, not for the short time you have every week with God.
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Post by micah1199 on Feb 24, 2017 18:15:31 GMT -5
My priest said that the SSPX has a number of priests who don't put Frank in the canon. I am not sure how to find this out. I will ask him next time. Regular sspx or r and r's? Regular SSPX
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Post by kim on Feb 25, 2017 5:15:27 GMT -5
So if you attend a valid Latin or Eastern rite Mass that is una cum Frank, do you have to keep your sedevacantism secret? Do you have to go undercover, so to speak? What do you do if the priest starts singing Frank's praises or quoting him? Would some priests throw you out if they found out your position? They are all una cum Francis, so if one is going to go to an eastern rite, keep that in mind. I think what one has to do is think about why you go to mass in the first place. It's not the time to talk, to get into theological discussions, etc., it's the time to worship God according to the manner that He wants to be worshipped, to gain graces for being at mass, and lastly to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. I am not saying to be rude to the other parishioners, but you don't need to speak with them, just go and worship God and strengthen your soul with grace. If you do want to socialize, that's fine, you are under no obligation to get into complex theological discussions with people who will most likely misunderstand what you are saying or not have a clue to what you are referring. In my opinion, this is not about keeping a secret, its about focusing on what is important for your salvation, and just getting to mass and not worrying about controversy while there, just your soul. Leave that for these forums, not for the short time you have every week with God. So you just have to go dead silent when Francis' name comes up? Do you think the priest would throw you out if he knew you were sede? I'm thinking about trying one here--hence the questions.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 25, 2017 8:02:14 GMT -5
In the DL and as cantor I respond with Lord have Mercy...I simply reframe my intention for that response...or I cough.
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Post by Clotilde on Feb 25, 2017 13:00:05 GMT -5
In the DL and as cantor I respond with Lord have Mercy...I simply reframe my intention for that response...or I cough. Lord, have mercy is right, when it comes to Francis. It can have another meaning!
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 25, 2017 13:42:43 GMT -5
They are all una cum Francis, so if one is going to go to an eastern rite, keep that in mind. I think what one has to do is think about why you go to mass in the first place. It's not the time to talk, to get into theological discussions, etc., it's the time to worship God according to the manner that He wants to be worshipped, to gain graces for being at mass, and lastly to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. I am not saying to be rude to the other parishioners, but you don't need to speak with them, just go and worship God and strengthen your soul with grace. If you do want to socialize, that's fine, you are under no obligation to get into complex theological discussions with people who will most likely misunderstand what you are saying or not have a clue to what you are referring. In my opinion, this is not about keeping a secret, its about focusing on what is important for your salvation, and just getting to mass and not worrying about controversy while there, just your soul. Leave that for these forums, not for the short time you have every week with God. So you just have to go dead silent when Francis' name comes up? Do you think the priest would throw you out if he knew you were sede? I'm thinking about trying one here--hence the questions. I think the crux of this matter is that eastern Catholics, and the SSPX and others are publicly praying for an undeclared heretic, meaning that the act is not forbidden by the Church. Secondly, the status of Francis, like those before him, has not been authoritatively determined by the Church, meaning that acknowledging him as pope is not a schismatic act. In light of these facts, along with the fact that we have no authority in the Church, our role is to save our soul, and those under our charge. I do not see any obligation on the laity to make fraternal correction upon others not under one's charge, unless you believe there is a reasonable chance of success. Due to the extreme confusion among Catholics and tremendous ignorance of the complex principles involved, I do not not see much hope of success in most cases. I do not see any reason to bring this matter up with other Catholics unless you think you have a reasonable chance of helping them to better understand it. I think it is always good to keep in mind that we are just the sheep of the Church, we are not the commissioned leaders, the Shepherds. Our role as laypeople is not the same as the pastors of the Church. To specifically asnwer your question, yes, its possible that a priest might expel you for holding to sedevacantist position, but I think a lot depends on how you conduct yourself in general. If you are causing a disruption in the parish, that would be the cause of your expulsion, in my opinion, not the sedevacantist position, But, if you just want a place to go to mass, and are not leaving literature or making conflicts about this, I doubt the priest would expel you. I do not believe you have an obligation to profess the sedevanstist position, as you do the Catholic Faith. They are not synonymous. If you are directly questioned about it, it would be up to you if you choose to answer, but you cannot lie. If the questioner lacks authority, you owe him nothing. Since this is not a matter of Faith, you have no strict obligation to profess it. The pastor of a Church has authority over his parish, and as you go there, if he asks you, I believe you owe him an answer, and you should answer him. Many "sedevacantist" Catholics have found a niche in the eastern rites going back to the 1970's. Many have found a balance where they can go there in peace, a place to hear mass, receive the sacraments, and live their Faith without compromising on any point. My advice to you if you go there is this: let the priest get to know you as person first, show him that you are level headed good person. Over time, as you get to know him and others in the parish, rely on your good reputation and good rapport with them, and they might listen to you, as they would know you. Even if they disagree with you, if they know you as a good Catholic and upright person, they will still respect you. If you go into a Church where no one knows you, and start pushing sedevacantism, expect a very negative reaction. The only way that would successfully work, to go marching about preaching to strangers, in my opinion, is if God (or the Church) gives you a mission to do that.
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Post by annamack on Mar 10, 2017 5:44:32 GMT -5
Sorry for getting off topic! I have been told that one should not attend Mass where the Una Cum prayer is in the Mass. That by doing so one is uniting themselves with Francis and agreeing that Francis is Pope, and therefore I am condoning everything Francis does or stands for by attending. This is a debunked position of a small faction of imbalanced "sedevacantists." I would be happy to discuss it with you in a separate thread, but let it suffice to say: flee from these people who tell you such things. Hmm. Veronica's point is the position taken by most of the sede priests, including the Dolan/Sanborn group, the SSPV and the CMRI (none of them exactly extremists!). If we have to flee from all of them, it doesn't leave us many options
For the sake of both our souls and our sanity, we should certainly steer well clear of the likes of the Dimond brothers but, if you're una cum, you can't really call yourself sede - the two just don't logically mix.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Mar 10, 2017 6:01:21 GMT -5
Of course they do because the sedevecantist OPINION is not a new rite of the Church. We are Catholic laity...some of who for the sake of making sense of the crisis hold to the theory best fits with all the facts. It is not dogma or anything that is required of the laity to weigh in and be infallible in its opinion on this matter. In the western schism it would seem large numbers of Catholics were attending masses where the clergy were naming the wrong man as Pope. So Im not impressed that sede clergy( if you will) hold opinions themselves that are wrong. BTW it goes both ways attending masses that do not name frank as pope is that a sin? Is it a proper mass? I would guess sspxers would have something to say.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 10, 2017 13:05:26 GMT -5
This is a debunked position of a small faction of imbalanced "sedevacantists." I would be happy to discuss it with you in a separate thread, but let it suffice to say: flee from these people who tell you such things. Hmm. Veronica's point is the position taken by most of the sede priests, including the Dolan/Sanborn group, the SSPV and the CMRI (none of them exactly extremists!). If we have to flee from all of them, it doesn't leave us many options
For the sake of both our souls and our sanity, we should certainly steer well clear of the likes of the Dimond brothers but, if you're una cum, you can't really call yourself sede - the two just don't logically mix.
When I say "flee from them," I was merely saying to flee from them in this matter, as they are wrong when they generally urge you to avoid valid and licit sacraments. Btw, the CMRI explicitly as a policy does not forbid Catholics from going to "una cum" masses. This is the statement on the subject by Bp. Pivarunas and all priests of the CMRI which was appended to John Lane's excellent 2002 article on this topic, The Question of Assistance at the Mass of a Priest Who Professes Communion With John Paul II as Pope:
Regarding SSPV, they have never had a problem with Catholics attending SSPX, this is common knowledge. Their only problem is with Catholics going to to the sacraments of bishops or priests through the +Thuc line. That leaves the groups run by Bishops Sanborn and Dolan and some others in Europe. They are the only ones saying this, so let's be clear on this that this idea is found only in their small but very vocal groups. Interestingly enough, the Dimonds go to the Ukrainian rite Divine Liturgy in union with Francis, and on this matter clearly grasp the correct principles. A broken clock is correct twice a day. Lastly, I disagree with your assertion that one cannot hold the sedevacantist position and go to mass in union with the undeclared heretic. The law supports a Catholics right to go to such masses, ( Ad Evintanda Scandala), as has been demonstrated already.
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Deleted
Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 14:04:01 GMT -5
Regarding the above Una Cum issue and the CMRI, 2 yrs ago when I finally found my way to the Faith, I spoke over the phone with a young CMRI Priest several times. When I told him I was considering attending a Latin Mass with a pre-Vatican II Priest in the Diocese, he said that was "a no no" due to the Una Cum. He also laughed and "made fun" of the 89 yr old Priest offering the Mass. This CMRI Priest was a total turn off to the CMRI.
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