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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2016 14:59:48 GMT -5
what you describe sounds more like unschooling Um....no.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 16:37:37 GMT -5
kdon ot think i was being rude or nasty but yes probablh defensive often do in these treads, it's easy to talk about how horrible public schooling is when you can be secure knowing that you won't ever have to put your child in them, and you'll always be able to properly meet their needs at home. i get frustrated because sometimes, when people say it isn't working it isn't working.
itis a broken system lie anything in this world of ours. there are some wonderful people working in public education, i happen to know many of them having worked in it myself. some districs are worse some are better, depends on the district, depends on the teachers... In NYC we have some amazing schools, and we have some crappy schools. I was lucky to go to a pretty decent elementary / middle school and an amazing high school. you either have to live in the right district, or you have to go through a long testing process to get into the right school. we recently found out that our son was accepted to the citywide gifted & talented school so i think there is a good chance he'll be challenged there in a way he isn't being challenged at home, and he'll be able to hang out with other gifted kids his age.
are there hazards? absolutly... more hazards than there were when i was a kid? tyes. does it make me queasy just thinking about sending him to publics school? indeed it does. but then again, my wie recently had to explain transgenderism because some little girl in one of his homeschool things is apparently transitioning to a boy now. i have seen little boys show up to library storytime wearing glittery skirts because "Mikey just wanted to wear his sister's skirt today" or sometimes he'll mistake a boy for a girl because he's got long hair and is wearing a pink t-shirt. it's all over the place. we do try to shelter him as much as possible, but at this point, it's all out in the open everywhere we go. abd uts nt like i am there with him when he goes to these coop things we usually hear about it later. there's nothing we can really do about that other than stop going to co-ops which would give him even fewer opportunities to have friends.
i think it is incredibly unfair to say that families who cannot logistically homeschool should just go without formal education, teach the child to read and they will just figure it out. I think a mind is a terrible thing to waste, and I want my son to have a well rounded education where he can reach his full intellectual potential. Sure, poor uneducated immigrant could work on the railroads, in factories or on the docks...that doesn't mean I want that for my own child. Never mind the fact that all the factories have gone to china, the warehouses have all been converted into hipster artspaces and housing coops. there arent too many longshoremen in brookln these days... the old waterfronts are now pleasant little green spaces with playgrounds and sprinkler parks overlooking the east river. times have change, definitely not for the better.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2016 17:55:40 GMT -5
FYI Chestertonian...All 5 of my kids attended the local public school at one point of their education process...All were homeschooled first...my oldest three up to Junior high and High school...my youngest two went in 5th and 6th grade. I was working A job and running a business and My wife just couldnt keep up the pace. WHY because...like you she kept think Homeschooling means public school at home. So she burnt herself out trying to act like a "school"...now she still did an excellent Job and she was loving and good...but I could see she was not making it well so I relented and let the kids finish up in the Public school. Now our local school is very conservative...mostly white and upper middle class...not too big and not too small. I let my children know the whole time they were going that We their parents and they themselves had all the rights and school system had none. If a teacher upset them or was treating them unjustly they were free to stand up for their rights. This school still asked permission for certain programs and we opted out of all sex ed (overcoming the districts protestation easily by invoking our 1st amendment right to practice our religion) So to my kids the Public school was simply a graduation from the homeschool. Did they get damaged by liberalism... Yes...and I will have to answer to God for that...but I can safely say my answer was I was trying to do the very best I could as working sole provider for a wife and five children...PS I dropped out of High school in 11th grade. So quit setting up this discussion like everyone is judging you...no one is...but this thread is about a godless prohomosodomy proabortion nearly communist SYSTEM that would deigne to AUDIT Parents. God is the author of every Child conceived...God is not the author of the govts of the pagans. Ipso Facto...Parents have God given authority and rights...the State education system has ZERO. You imply they have SOME...I assert they have ZERO. That is our disagreement...not whether you will/should homeschool or not.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 23:15:07 GMT -5
Chestertonian, Just a few points. 1. It is an assumption that Catholic schools were available for all Catholics in former times. They were not and many if not most Catholic families dealt with the education issue in the best way they could. 2. So you know, the Canon in question, 1374, was actually a concession. It allowed Catholic children to go to these non-Catholic (public) schools, but required a dispensation from the local ordinary, based on two considerations: whether circumstances warranted it, and secondly that safeguards were in place to protect the child's Faith and morals. 3. Just because the canon is old does not make its wisdom out of date. Do you honestly think that public schools today, in regards to the dangers to a child's Faith and morals are better than 1917? Are you aware of the things that the children are regularly exposed to in modern public schools? I cannot say on here as it would go against decency,but I am sure you can get the idea. Also, I am not talking only about what is taught through the curriculum, in my opinion, the greater danger is from the peers in the school. 4. The Canon also, in addition to its wisdom, has a binding force upon Catholics, who are not free to disregard it. I am not unaware that the local see is vacant, but, if a Catholic is to presume a dispensation, he must also be morally certain that the bishop would give such a dispensation. In your case, it's obvious that you meet the first test of circumstances, but you should give a lot of thought and reflection on the second part: how do Catholics living today safeguard their child's Faith and morals when they put their children in these Public Schools of our times. I am not sure exactly what the bishop would order, but I do know that if he were acting as he should, he would want to make sure additional safeguards were in place, more so than bishops of the past. The dangers are much greater than those that existed in the first half of the 20th century. Children today are being exposed to all sorts of illicit drugs and perversion in the form of images. All it takes is another classmate pulling out an iPhone, and showing your child an impure picture or video, and then your child is changed forever. You can't unsee what is seen. This is but one example, there are so many more. We as Catholics are facing real problems that our ancestors never even would have considered, so it is important that we keep that in mind when reflecting on how our lawful bishops would have steered us in today's times. Just so you know, I sympathize with you, as I can see you are dealing with a very difficult dilemma. lotsto reply to here, indeed the system was not foolproof back then.during hte industrial revolution... no system is.. but there was a system can't say that about our time. the "homeschool or bust" model isn't really a system. everyone does what's best for their family. i dont think anyone would blame us for pulling our son out of the catholic pre-k he was in, wasn't that Catholic, wasn't that academically enriching, and they didn't manage his medical issues. the good orthodox catholic parents have jumped ship..leaving the parish school systems in large numbers and who can blame them? many are lacking in academic rigor and almost all are lacking in orthodoxy. it's great for the families who actualy could provide a decent education fortheir childat hme but not so great for the families that can't. kind of like the Titanic is sinking.... some people got on the lifeboats, and some people drowned. oh well. i can't blame some people for wanting to get on the lifeboat but if i'm on the lifeboat i'm not going to tell the folks who are in the middle of the icy atlantic waters that if they just have the right mentality and put their min to it, they can swim tosafety.....you know? pretty sure the last of the catholic schools will close in my son's lifetime. all will be left are public schools and homeschoolers with the occasional SSPX (or similar) schools in rural america. when much is given to someone, much is expected. but when you are given a box of spaghetti, a aroll of toilet paper, and some thumb tacks.....you can't really make a cake with those ingredients, no matter how much you put your mind to it. positive thinking isn't that powerful. as forthe actual canon itself... i can see how you would have your perspective since you are sedevacantist and would not see the new code of canon law as valid. i am more sede-agnostic......not fthat familiar with canon law in general anddd have no idea what the 83 canon law code even seays about this stuff. all i know is that the idea of me going to Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of the diocese of brooklyn and saying "hey...so....1917 code of canon law says .............. my family situation is ................and so i need the permission of the local ordinary to say that i can send my child to the public schools, what do you think?" he'd be quite bewildered. almost makes me want to do it just to see his reaction. indeeed safeguarding his faith and morals in an environment is important one... there are many books blogs and sermons devoted toward living off the grid and cultivating a sneltered traditional catholic family life, but not so much guidance out there about this thing. there's no trad parents guide to living in a cultural cesspool i have mentioned elsewhere but like Chesterton i am a big fan of fairy tales for training the sensibilities, and awareness of danger and strength of character. the world is full of Rumplestiltskins and Baba Yagas. that's about where my son is at right now. i try to use fairy tales to demonstrate that not all grown ups are nice, and that he should always look to the wisdom he has received at home and his own God given strength to persevere. also have tried to explain some of the bad stuff that's out there in terms that he can understand. when he encountered a child at homeshcool group who was transgender, we explained that there are a lot of confused and hurting people out there who can't seem to feel secure in the body God gave them, and so they pretend to be a person of the other gender. these people need our prayers, etc etc. his impulse was to make fun of these kids (especially the boys wearing nail polish) and in some ways....that's good (that he knows it's not normal) but in other ways it could lead to some major problems down the line, especially in light of the new NYC laws about transgender folks and harrassment....something ilike a $150,000 fine for not using their chosen pronouns he has also encountered peers with two moms, two dads. etc. its eerywhere you turn around. especially problematic now that he can read well since he sees signs everywhere for pride month, now that it's june. my son asks, 'why does everyone here want to celebrate pride? isnt that a sin??"
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 23:44:46 GMT -5
FYI Chestertonian...All 5 of my kids attended the local public school at one point of their education process...All were homeschooled first...my oldest three up to Junior high and High school...my youngest two went in 5th and 6th grade. I was working A job and running a business and My wife just couldnt keep up the pace. WHY because...like you she kept think Homeschooling means public school at home. So she burnt herself out trying to act like a "school"...now she still did an excellent Job and she was loving and good...but I could see she was not making it well so I relented and let the kids finish up in the Public school. Now our local school is very conservative...mostly white and upper middle class...not too big and not too small. I let my children know the whole time they were going that We their parents and they themselves had all the rights and school system had none. If a teacher upset them or was treating them unjustly they were free to stand up for their rights. This school still asked permission for certain programs and we opted out of all sex ed (overcoming the districts protestation easily by invoking our 1st amendment right to practice our religion) So to my kids the Public school was simply a graduation from the homeschool. Did they get damaged by liberalism... Yes...and I will have to answer to God for that...but I can safely say my answer was I was trying to do the very best I could as working sole provider for a wife and five children...PS I dropped out of High school in 11th grade. So quit setting up this discussion like everyone is judging you...no one is...but this thread is about a godless prohomosodomy proabortion nearly communist SYSTEM that would deigne to AUDIT Parents. God is the author of every Child conceived...God is not the author of the govts of the pagans. Ipso Facto...Parents have God given authority and rights...the State education system has ZERO. You imply they have SOME...I assert they have ZERO. That is our disagreement...not whether you will/should homeschool or not. i appreciate your perspective and thanks for clarifying wouldnt say that we have tried to do school at home o dp agraee that it is unrealistic even if there is a stay at home mom doing it. i spent a lot of time researching curricula that would be user friendly and designed for home educators. went with IEW language arts, Math-U-See, handwriting without tears (unless your wife is bipolar). basic stuff. i dont think we expected that he would spend 6 hours a day on schooling like in public schools. i dont expect rigid structure or a "homeschool uniform" or having a "homeschool room" or any of the "school at home" sort of stuff some homeschooling families do. it is mostly about putting a small amount of time into schooling each day (even if it's in his pajamas) being on track so that he can get into a decent school if this doesn't work.... in addition NY state does require homeschool reporting and there are basic academic requirements you must fulfill. no auditing, mostly just annoying paperwork. 5 year old kindergarteners dont have to do it but it starts at 6 soif e do it next year we are using a homeschool consultant who can take care of all the reporting. i think that if you stick with any of the available catholic programs, you should be in the clear as far as the state it sounds like your children are finding their way.definitely agree about teaching children to assert themselves in the classroom... one of the things the wife and i go back and forth about is.....what is going to be crazier next year.... homeschooling or possibly having to fight the system in some areas. the diabetic issue is also a thing.... i know so many families with type 1 kids that homeschool because its easier for them than dealing with IEP's and getting school to comply with them. as for govt oversight, i do not think that the govt should audit homeschooling families directly, it is more nuanced thn that but will clarify my views on that iontheother thread
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 7, 2016 0:45:38 GMT -5
Cherstertonian, chill. No one is judging you. Least of all me. There is no need to get rude, defensive, or nasty, it's the internet so I can't actually tell your tone. I wish we lived closer. I'd love to meet your wife, lend you all some support, and have some fun mom time, and your boy could play with our kids, they would really like him. They would probably fight over him. Ok, he would need body armor but at least he would have a good time. come visit nyc anytime.... its a nice place to visit but you woudnt want to live here my son tends to be very reserved and mild mannered but when he's around other kids, it is like he is a different person.... he goes crazy and is all.... "OTHER KIDS!!! HALLELUJAH THANKYOUJESUS" a bit on the needy side.... when he was little he used to go up to random kids in the grocery store and be all "Would you be my friend?" we had to tell him to stop approaching random kids in restaurants because other families think that's weird, and you don't just go up to strangers and initiate social contact with them, this is New York" one time we were in the grocery store he was about 3 or 4 and there was a little kid having a meltdown and he just went up to her and hugged her. theroommate here on this new rehab unit has beenhere for a long time,hasan 8 year old son who comes to visit hm every day, my son met him today because this is my first day here 30 minutes with this kid and they are trying to skateboard on IV poles thankfully not in use! yes, i get heated about these topics.. education & my children, two of my lifes biggest passions.... so it follows that i am often quite iimpassionedassionate when this subject comes up
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 7, 2016 11:36:53 GMT -5
Cherstertonian, chill. No one is judging you. Least of all me. There is no need to get rude, defensive, or nasty, it's the internet so I can't actually tell your tone. I wish we lived closer. I'd love to meet your wife, lend you all some support, and have some fun mom time, and your boy could play with our kids, they would really like him. They would probably fight over him. Ok, he would need body armor but at least he would have a good time. come visit nyc anytime.... its a nice place to visit but you woudnt want to live here my son tends to be very reserved and mild mannered but when he's around other kids, it is like he is a different person.... he goes crazy and is all.... "OTHER KIDS!!! HALLELUJAH THANKYOUJESUS" a bit on the needy side.... when he was little he used to go up to random kids in the grocery store and be all "Would you be my friend?" we had to tell him to stop approaching random kids in restaurants because other families think that's weird, and you don't just go up to strangers and initiate social contact with them, this is New York" one time we were in the grocery store he was about 3 or 4 and there was a little kid having a meltdown and he just went up to her and hugged her. theroommate here on this new rehab unit has beenhere for a long time,hasan 8 year old son who comes to visit hm every day, my son met him today because this is my first day here 30 minutes with this kid and they are trying to skateboard on IV poles thankfully not in use! yes, i get heated about these topics.. education & my children, two of my lifes biggest passions.... so it follows that i am often quite iimpassionedassionate when this subject comes up I've been to NYC. Didn't really ever want to go back. I still don't but I want the kids to see certain things there. We will probably do it in the next 2-4 years, I don't really know. This year will be atypical as far as travel.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 7, 2016 11:55:03 GMT -5
don't go in June
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2016 14:28:59 GMT -5
I would leave JewYork as soon as possible and I definitly wouldnt visit. There is more foul sin going on in that city per capita than even vegas.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 7, 2016 14:37:04 GMT -5
I would leave JewYork as soon as possible and I definitly wouldnt visit. There is more foul sin going on in that city per capita than even vegas. Well that's easier said than done i an not in a position to just live wherever i want
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2016 14:41:01 GMT -5
I would leave JewYork as soon as possible and I definitly wouldnt visit. There is more foul sin going on in that city per capita than even vegas. Well that's easier said than done i an not in a position to just live wherever i want As I said...asap
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 7, 2016 14:47:04 GMT -5
Well that's easier said than done i an not in a position to just live wherever i want As I said...asap It would not be possible, barring some sort of miraculous healing.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2016 14:55:41 GMT -5
It would not be possible, barring some sort of miraculous healing. you understand what asap means right. If it never becomes possible...so be it.
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