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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 16:23:39 GMT -5
Catholic schools were a disaster for us. homeschooling so far is somewhat a disaster. public school very well could be a disaster as well. there are no "good" options. we might be doing public school next year because it's a lot to expect a nanny to care for an infant and also homeschool a 1st grader and take him to a zillion [secular] coops. and my wife doesn't think it will be possible for her to be able to do the homeschooling work plus all the other responsibilities
god sometimes puts families in circumstances wher homeschooling just does not work. public school is a relatively new concept but so is homeschooling as we know it today. There are no "governess" listings on safesittings.com when you interview a nanny fsay you want them to do your child's handwriting without tears book or IEW language arts they have no idea what you're talking about. the canon was written during a time when there actually we're reliable and affordable private school options now the Catholic school we looked at f for next year is $16k for first grade. and it's not even that Catholic
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 5, 2016 16:39:31 GMT -5
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 5, 2016 16:46:23 GMT -5
Chestertonian. I moved your thread here to discuss. We are trying to keep resourse section, discussion free, but for you and all members feel free to start a thread about any resourse you want to discuss in the subforum that you think best fits the topic.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 16:58:44 GMT -5
sorry didn'trwalize
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 16:59:06 GMT -5
sorry didn't realize
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 5, 2016 17:07:47 GMT -5
No problem, this system of separating discussion and resourses will make is easier to find resourses when anyone needs them.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 17:10:55 GMT -5
makes sense
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 5, 2016 17:11:42 GMT -5
I think you have multiple issues going on here: 1. You are in a non-typical situation where you need to hire outside help, and live an atypical home life 2. You have little experience homeschooling 3. You have developed some concrete ideas about what homeschooling is supposed to be, which might be hard for you to look past
I'm not trying to pick you apart here, Chester, and I have every confidence that you will make the decision you have to make.
I would think everyone in a tough circumstance regarding education would at least make a good-faith effort to investigate and try ways to avoid public schools. There is the moral aspect, which must be weighed, and we should be careful to not decieve ourselves when making a decision without any local ordinary, or trying ascertain his will.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 22:12:28 GMT -5
I think you have multiple issues going on here: 1. You are in a non-typical situation where you need to hire outside help, and live an atypical home life 2. You have little experience homeschooling 3. You have developed some concrete ideas about what homeschooling is supposed to be, which might be hard for you to look past I'm not trying to pick you apart here, Chester, and I have every confidence that you will make the decision you have to make. I would think everyone in a tough circumstance regarding education would at least make a good-faith effort to investigate and try ways to avoid public schools. There is the moral aspect, which must be weighed, and we should be careful to not decieve ourselves when making a decision without any local ordinary, or trying ascertain his will. as for experience? I have an Masters in Education and several years' experience as a secondary English teacher in public and private schools, as well as experience in teaching private music lessons at home. i am familiar with pedagogical standards and best practices. none of my classes in school administration could have prepared me for managing my wife, my mother, and the nanny, all of whom were reluctant and unsure about homeschooling, but were willing to give it an honest shot.s kind of like herding stressed and overworked cats.after doing a lot of research about the curriculum options available, we purchased some curriculum materials. part of what made me decide to homeschool was my own reservations about the public school, our negative experience at Catholic school, and my son's diabetes which was not well managed in the school setting. there is also a strong current in the tradosphere that is very hostile towards working mothers and families who use the public school system, so being horribly guilty was another powerful motivator I'd say. there's this sense that if you don't homeschool, you're a failure of a parent and your children will grow up to be cogs in the Illuminati machine. the Mrs started reading a bunch of these homeschool blogs, she went to a Traditional Catholic homeschool conference, and we surveyed the homeschool groups available in NYC and tried to get involved although there's not a heck of a lot to get involved with that's remotely Catholic or even protestant. there's definitely a hint of hostility toward working mothers in the homeschool community, particularly among trads (although the secular homeschooling mothers seem to be this way too--especially the ultra attachment parenting types). If you need childcare so you can work, you might as well be putting them in one of those Chinese orphanages (in fact i have heard some trads refer to daycare as "day orphanage"). and if you are one of those people who choose not to homeschool because you don't think it's a good fit for whatever reason, you're just lazy and not trying hard enough. The parents of 1917 surely did not have this sort of guilt thrusted upon them. back then, the problems they dealt with were a lot different, such as having to go work in a factory when you're 10 and dying from breathing in those fumes. You didn't have mothers coming home from work at 7pm stressing out because their son hasn't memorized 10 facts about carnivorous plants for the homeschool science co-op. My wife went to this homeschool conference last year. she said that she was havinglunchw the other moms at the conference ad when she mentioned that she worked full time outside the home and that the nanny was the one with him during the day it was like there were crickets chirping. There were some co-ops that made it abundantly clear to both my mother, and the nanny, that they were not welcome because it was for homeschooling parents only. my son has a few opportunity during the week to go to classes and activities, but the children are not really his friends and of course none of them are Catholic. I have seen how it can take a toll on my son's relationship with his mom. They only get so much time together and it's not going to get any easier when the new baby comes. She leaves before he wakes up, and often comes home around 7pm. The time she has to "do school" is the hour before his bedtime--time that used to be spent snuggling, talking about his day, and just being his mom. Now it's filled up with educational stuff... science projects off of Pinterest, etc. Not to mention the fact that she is responsible for all my medical care and she just worked a full day, and she is pregnant and exhausted. She has said before that she can't just have normal mother-son interactions anymore, everything has to be a teachable moment so she can squeeze as much learning into her time with him. He's a melancholic (and a perfectionsit) and has a pretty low frustration threshold. He freaks out when his work isn't perfect. The fact that his handwriting does not look like the handwriting in the book is quite upsetting One time, I was in the hospital and I got a text from my wife which read, "This book says "Handwriting Without Tears" so WHY ARE BOTH OF US CRYING???" My mother has been doing Math-U-See with him, they're on Beta, and not getting a heck of a lot done because she does work from home, and it is not always easy for her to balance her own work with homeschooling. And when I'm not in the hospital and she's doing my medical care, she gets even less done. Add a new baby to the mix in a few months and you can call it Math-U-Haven't-Seen-In-A-Long-Time. I hate seeing how much stress this has been for them, on top of already dealing with ridiculous amounts of stress. I won't say it's been all bad, but most of the happy homeschoolng moments havebeen on my end because i am not also trying to do 1000 things. The care I require at home is pretty demanding and intense, a full time job for them. The Mrs is often up all night with my health stuff and when I'm not home she often worries and that has its own stress Not to mention the socialization aspect and the fact that after being taken out of school for a year and a half now, my son is still pretty lonely and his home life is fairly unstable and unpredictable, which is a contributing factor in mental illness later on. In addition, a lot of the people who dismiss concerns about socialization do not have extroverted friendship-deprived only children. I could see him thriving psychosocially in a school environment. But, according to the culture among homeschoolers, homeschooling is for everyone, la dee da. Often when people post stories about bad things happening in the schools, parents will comment, "This is why we homeschool." I see this self-righteous back patting all the time among my fellow homeschoolers, whether it's on Trad circles or whether it's the Williamsburg Brooklyn Hipster Homeschool Society. Everyone says "My God, thank You for the fact that I am not like those poor schlubs over there who send their children to public school." It's easy to think that way when you never have to worry about your children ever having to set foot into one of those dreaded schools (which of course are nothing but indoctrination camps, nothing good could possibly come of them). I have no idea what tomorrow will be like. Everything is a day at a time. I am not sure if I'll even be around next year, 5 years from now, and beyond. I am pretty sure that my son will not be able to be homeschooled for 12 years. And the next child, God willing, I have no idea what is in store. Perhaps when I pass away my wife will remarry and my child[ren] will have a new father who will be able to give them things that I could not. Only God knows what the future holds. There is not much of a sense of collectivism like there used to be. In the olden days, the rich folks who could hire governesses and tutors for their children often donated money to support the School Sisters and the Christian Brothers, and the many teaching orders that dedicated their lives to the education of poor children. The parishes supported parochial schools which did try to make Catholic education affordable for all families. Now, very few families are fortunate enough to live near a Catholic school that is actually Catholic, and the School Sisters and Christian Brothers have descended into heresy. They are an endangered species that will go extinct in my lifetime. What we're left with is public school, and homeschooling. I do not fault families for making that choice--it's the choice we've made for the time being, and for many it is a wonderful choice. But in general it does nothing to help those famlies who have no choice but to use the public schools. The only thing that tends to go their way is guilt. There are funds you can donate for Catholic education but there is no Maria Von Trapp Fund for Families Who Cannot Afford Full Time Governesses. Perhaps there should be.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 5, 2016 22:22:05 GMT -5
Ironically it is your education background that probably made you over think what homeschooling is...its not public school at home...its simply parents teaching their children how to read and write...and do basic mathematics. My wife over thought it and burned herself out...homeschool is a fancy name for "RAISING CHILDREN" and God gave us all the graces needed to perform on that level.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 23:11:09 GMT -5
Ironically it is your education background that probably made you over think what homeschooling is...its not public school at home...its simply parents teaching their children how to read and write...and do basic mathematics. My wife over thought it and burned herself out...homeschool is a fancy name for "RAISING CHILDREN" and God gave us all the graces needed to perform on that level. No, homeschooling is not "raising children," and "raising children" does not necessarily imply educating them. Many generations of parents before us raised children without educating them--they either were uneducated themselves, or they did not have the means to procure education for their child beyond rudimentary stuff. Children need more than reading, writing, and basic mathematics....how about training the mind to think critically and systematically? And at this point, basic mathematics isn't even happening much. Hence, "Math U Don't See Often Enough"
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 5, 2016 23:21:50 GMT -5
Ironically it is your education background that probably made you over think what homeschooling is...its not public school at home...its simply parents teaching their children how to read and write...and do basic mathematics. My wife over thought it and burned herself out...homeschool is a fancy name for "RAISING CHILDREN" and God gave us all the graces needed to perform on that level. Exactly what I was trying to get at. Its a lifestyle, not school at home. Trying to make it into school and using methods designed for classrooms only leads to frustration. Both adults and kids just have to get over themselves. The reason why Catholics get so hung up on it is because the dangers of losing one's faith in public school are high. It's real. It doesn't mean everyone is condemning you, or telling you what to do. However, you can't say that the agenda to indoctrinate children is not being ramped up in these schools. They are more dangerous than even 15 years ago. That's just the reality. A child is better off, as a Catholic in 2016, being homeschooled in 99% of situations. Maybe they won't take Caculus or go to college*, but they are likely to stay close with their family and they are less likely to leave the Church. *the majority of my associates who have graduated children from homeschool have received full scholarships and have also chosen to retain the religion of their parents into adulthood. You are facing a very different situation, but all I'm saying is don't overthink it, toss out all of the structured ideas you have about socialization and education and start afresh. Look, I know you have limited options but don't paint yourself into a corner. It's all about approach, if you approach homeschooling thinking it is going to fit into a neat little box and that you are going to control every little aspect, or with a defeatist attitude, you probably will fail. I mean "you" in general here, I think I have a little room to talk given that I have a wide network of homeschoolers that I know well, and that I've made it this far, eighth grade, yikes! May God grant you wisdom, prudence, and fortitude as you make each decision.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 5, 2016 23:29:42 GMT -5
Ironically it is your education background that probably made you over think what homeschooling is...its not public school at home...its simply parents teaching their children how to read and write...and do basic mathematics. My wife over thought it and burned herself out...homeschool is a fancy name for "RAISING CHILDREN" and God gave us all the graces needed to perform on that level. No, homeschooling is not "raising children," and "raising children" does not necessarily imply educating them. Many generations of parents before us raised children without educating them--they either were uneducated themselves, or they did not have the means to procure education for their child beyond rudimentary stuff. Children need more than reading, writing, and basic mathematics....how about training the mind to think critically and systematically? And at this point, basic mathematics isn't even happening much. Hence, "Math U Don't See Often Enough" I have a friend who is an emotional wreck. She doesn't teach her kids a thing. Her husband is a nasty man. I cannot stand her children, because they are too hyper for my taste. Anyhow, the oldest couldn't read until she was 11. I don't think the younger boy can read yet and he's 7. Guess what, she's fine, he's fine. They are calming down, they are learning the skills they need at their own paces. They have tons of other talents which they picked up in their spare time, they are bi-lingual, and play several instruments each, to name a few. All with the possibly the worst homeschooling mother I've ever met. She doesn't even try. We will be schooling all summer, which doesn't matter because our life was spent doing other things this past year. And if we don't finish what I want by the fall, so what. No one will be harmed, no one will die, nothing will happen.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 5, 2016 23:48:11 GMT -5
my mother, my wife, the nanny (i.e. the people that actually do the work of homeschooling every day) have very little training in the art of pedagogy. The nanny does not have a college degree.
I am aware that for many families, a more relaxed approach can work especially if theres a stay at home mother with many children to attend to and there's very little worry that the children will ever have to enter the dreaded public schools. However, we do not have that. I have no idea what life will be like next year, or in a few years. My son very well might have to go to school at some point, and his younger brother as well--it's incredibly unlikely that my wife would be able to homeschool two boys as a single mother and widow. At some point, he will likely find himself in a school, and it will be problematic if he is not at grade level in all subjects.
Does your wide network of homeschoolers include working parents, or parents who are also caregivers, or working parents who are also caregivers? Did they have only children? Again, most of the homeschooling folks I know who claim that socialization is a non-issue are comign from the perspective of large catholic families, and that is not our perspective. The only playmates my son interacts with on a daily basis are imaginary, and he spends most of his time by himself or with other adults.
This is exactly what i mean aboutcpoeople always tellign peoplewhi have reservations about homeschooling that they actually can homeschool if they just did it the right way and tried enough, or had the right mindset.
as for being less likely to leave the church and more likely to stay close with their family, i wonder what the data has to say about that.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 0:20:03 GMT -5
yes, that is something we think about as well. there might not be a heck of a lot we can do about it. that is the reality for some families. not every family with working parents can afford to pay someone to stay with their children. The amount of $$$$$ we spend on childcare is more than the cost of college. I just think that it would be a nice thing if the homeschoolers who constantly poo-pooh public education would channel that criticism into working to help families that really struggle to be able to keep children out of school and cared for, much less educated. most people would rather just stay in their own bubble and it's every man for himself
Iit's completely unrealistic for many families, notjust mine know a lady who had 11 kids and she told me once that she tried to homeschool them, when it was just her and 5 of them at home. They were using Seton. nothing was getting done around the house, the whole place was a wreck and the children were very behind so she put them in school so she could finally clean her house again. not every family has a super-mom who can homeschool 11 kids.
as for the issue of children going into an environment that does not support the catholic faith, i will post something i posted elsewhere because i am tired and i would proabbly just be repeating a lot of what i said before:
"there can be a tendency to see children as innocent little lambs that are easily corrupted by any little thing. and there is some truth to that...we all know that the devil is prowling about like a roaring lion looking for souls to devour. At the same time, children are capable of heroic virtue. I often think about st dominic savio. He was the son of devout parents and he benefitted greatly from the spiritual formation of St. Don Bosco and his Oratory of St. Francis de Sales. However, not every chid at the oratory was a "good catholic boy." don bosco worked with the at risk youth of his day and many of the boys at the Oratory came from the streets. st dominic savio often encountered boys behaving in ways that were not virtuous and he was always quick to point them to Our Lord. one time another boy brought "a magazine with dirty pictures" into the dormitory and young dominic savio ripped it into pieces, chastising the other boys. even the oratory was not a perfect haven from corrupting influences, but st dominiccsavio did not allow himself to be corrupted.
often when modern people read fairytales and fantasy literature a common reaction is "where are the parents???" they seek to shelter their children from "sexist" fairy tales that contain grotesque and graphic content....many wont even allow their children to see the sanitized Disney versions. what they dont understand is that the mark of character is what you do when no one is watching, and often fairy tale heroes and heroines give children examples of how to navigate moral and spiritual hazards by using your wits. fairy tales can be a sort of "dress rehearsal" for the real world--a world where not everyone is good and kind. we read a lot of fairy tales in our house as part of our family culture. it isnt easy for us to build family culture since mrs C is always working and i am always out of commission, but we do what we can to pray together and create a sense of family identity. o tjnk that if you have a strong family culture at home, and as much formation from good priests as youhave access to can build up your child's "spiritual immune system"
kind of like the doll in "vasilisa the beautiful" a gift from her loving parents, to be with her wherever she goes, even when she walks into houses standing on chicken feet surrounded by fences made from human bones"
we have raised our son from day 1 with the understanding that he cannot look to his environment to reinforce his faith. it doesn't matter if no one else does it, you make the sign of the cross when you pass a catholic church. you say grace even if you are the only kid at co-op who bows his head to pray. we are always talking aboutthe fact that the vast, vast majority of people around us every day do not even believe in the same god that we believe in, and that we have to pray for souls. you cant look to your extended family, the diocese, the parishes, the children in your peer group and expect that they will understand what it means to be catholic. it's a harsh reality that everyone must confront sooner or later.
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