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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 0:22:30 GMT -5
No, homeschooling is not "raising children," and "raising children" does not necessarily imply educating them. Many generations of parents before us raised children without educating them--they either were uneducated themselves, or they did not have the means to procure education for their child beyond rudimentary stuff. Children need more than reading, writing, and basic mathematics....how about training the mind to think critically and systematically? And at this point, basic mathematics isn't even happening much. Hence, "Math U Don't See Often Enough" I have a friend who is an emotional wreck. She doesn't teach her kids a thing. Her husband is a nasty man. I cannot stand her children, because they are too hyper for my taste. Anyhow, the oldest couldn't read until she was 11. I don't think the younger boy can read yet and he's 7. Guess what, she's fine, he's fine. They are calming down, they are learning the skills they need at their own paces. They have tons of other talents which they picked up in their spare time, they are bi-lingual, and play several instruments each, to name a few. All with the possibly the worst homeschooling mother I've ever met. She doesn't even try. We will be schooling all summer, which doesn't matter because our life was spent doing other things this past year. And if we don't finish what I want by the fall, so what. No one will be harmed, no one will die, nothing will happen. wgat does "fine" mean to you
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2016 5:05:33 GMT -5
your definition of education is why you stress. It has been created by the materialist world view and passed through to you through university and the godless scientific community. The education and the raising of children are EXACTLY the same thing. Im sorry about your dire circumstances...but your problems do not justify the destruction of anyone's parental rights. Its surprises me that you are dismissive of immigrants who you called "uneducated"...many of these after coming to america built vast business enterprises...or ran simple stores. They defined success and happiness in a very different way than does your so called Teaching universitys. My advice...teach your children to read at a high level and then watch them soar. Meanwhile as I said....the OP stands...the admins at public schools have zero right or authority to AUDIT parents.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 6:12:57 GMT -5
what you describe sounds more like unschooling
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2016 6:34:09 GMT -5
your definition of education is why you stress. It has been created by the materialist world view and passed through to you through university and the godless scientific community. The education and the raising of children are EXACTLY the same thing. Im sorry about your dire circumstances...but your problems do not justify the destruction of anyone's parental rights. Its surprises me that you are dismissive of immigrants who you called "uneducated"...many of these after coming to america built vast business enterprises...or ran simple stores. They defined success and happiness in a very different way than does your so called Teaching university. My advice...teach your children to read at a high level and then watch them soar. Meanwhile as I said....the OP stands...the admins at public schools have zero right or authority to AUDIT parents. Spot on, Vox. Our style is Classical, but once I have a good reader, it makes my job so much easier.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2016 6:36:31 GMT -5
I have a friend who is an emotional wreck. She doesn't teach her kids a thing. Her husband is a nasty man. I cannot stand her children, because they are too hyper for my taste. Anyhow, the oldest couldn't read until she was 11. I don't think the younger boy can read yet and he's 7. Guess what, she's fine, he's fine. They are calming down, they are learning the skills they need at their own paces. They have tons of other talents which they picked up in their spare time, they are bi-lingual, and play several instruments each, to name a few. All with the possibly the worst homeschooling mother I've ever met. She doesn't even try. We will be schooling all summer, which doesn't matter because our life was spent doing other things this past year. And if we don't finish what I want by the fall, so what. No one will be harmed, no one will die, nothing will happen. wgat does "fine" mean to you They are happy, they love their parents, learning, trying new things, practicing old things, etc. the point is that it all comes out in the wash. They are not my favorite kids but they are having a great childhood.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2016 7:07:03 GMT -5
Also, just wanted to add that when I say that I have ties to a very diverse group of homeschoolers, I mean it. I do not say things that I don't mean. And yes, they are homeschooling through every conceivable problem. Generally, I do not justify what I say to anyone but I will make an exception today.
Off of the top of my head: one is a caretaker to a husband who is completely paralyzed, of a different culture, and they have four kids; one mother has five and she just did chemo; another mom just got two boys out of four boys into a major university, raising her sons alone after her husband took his own life; one was a single mother who died of a disease, but homeschooled to the last day; I've had friends who have homeschooled through abuse, adultery, bankruptcy; I've have friends and aquaintences who have one or two children--actually one child families are common around here, I just tend not to be closer with them because they are usually liberal; the majority of these people are not Catholic and they are not all Protestant. That's a sampling of what comes to mind easily and what I know about. I can't imagine what I don't know, some people carry their crosses very privately.
None of us are special, we are all just doing our best with what we have.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 7:22:41 GMT -5
wgat does "fine" mean to you They are happy, they love their parents, learning, trying new things, practicing old things, etc. the point is that it all comes out in the wash. They are not my favorite kids but they are having a great childhood. at this point, being homeschooled the way my son is, i would say it is anything but a "great childhood." if anything, he has to deal with things many children his age would never have to see, and he gets no break from it. in some ways i am torn because I hate the fact that he sees me very sick when he could be at school playing, and learning, and being with his peers at the same time, this is the time he has with me and someday I won't be here. Either way it's not easy for him to go through, and he suffers a lot because of it. school can be a very stabilizing thing for chidren and if home life is not stable, it can have a stabilizing, normalizing effect. It might be the only thing in a child's life that has any sort of predictibility or routine (my son certainly doesn't have any of those things). it sounds like the children you describe are making the best of their difficult family life, and it might seem from the outside that they have learned to read and are doing the best they can with what they have. It would be interesting to see what they say about their own upbringing as adults. That does not mean that they are educated or prepared for the real world (although perhaps having to fight and struggle to learn anything is its own preparation). The mind requires training for most children, and I have seen some homeschooling parents do an amazing job with giving their children many opportunities to develop their intellectual abilities. Many of these parents also are aware of their weaknesses and seek outside help when they need it. sure, having a child who can read independently does make homeschooling easier. that does not mean that he will teach himself everything he needs to know to be properly educated. my child is a fairly independent reader for his age (almost 6) and can read chapter books on his own. that doesn't mean that he doesn't benefit from having an adult who can assess his reading level and make sure he is being challenged, and make sure he is reading the right books, and guide his education accordingly. learning can be fun and gratifying, but the truth is that it's often hard work, too. human beings are fallen and often will gravitate toward what comes easily and naturally to them. They don't alwayswant to memorize poems, multiplication tables, and historical facts. I certainly didn't as a child, and never would have done it if a teacher hadn't stood over my head. I see a lot of value inself directed and see a lot of value in letting your child follow his interests. That doesn't mean that we throw formal education out the window, especially since the Church has a longstanding tradition of valuing it. Why did those School Sisters and Christian Brothers even bother founding all those schools for the poor youth if all the children needed was a library card or a wifi connection?
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 7:40:23 GMT -5
Also, just wanted to add that when I say that I have ties to a very diverse group of homeschoolers, I mean it. I do not say things that I don't mean. And yes, they are homeschooling through every conceivable problem. Generally, I do not justify what I say to anyone but I will make an exception today. Off of the top of my head: one is a caretaker to a husband who is completely paralyzed, of a different culture, and they have four kids; one mother has five and she just did chemo; another mom just got two boys out of four boys into a major university, raising her sons alone after her husband took his own life; one was a single mother who died of a disease, but homeschooled to the last day; I've had friends who have homeschooled through abuse, adultery, bankruptcy; I've have friends and aquaintences who have one or two children--actually one child families are common around here, I just tend not to be closer with them because they are usually liberal; the majority of these people are not Catholic and they are not all Protestant. That's a sampling of what comes to mind easily and what I know about. I can't imagine what I don't know, some people carry their crosses very privately. None of us are special, we are all just doing our best with what we have. I would say that caring for someone who is completely paralyzed, but otherwise medically stable, is considerably easier thatn someone with my issues, even though i have some arm movement (although I could always be wrong). while you might know people in "every conceivable situation", you don't know our situation, and you don't know us, and you have no idea how complicated life is on a daily basis in our household. We are also doing our best with what we have, and it is not going well.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2016 10:23:31 GMT -5
Also, just wanted to add that when I say that I have ties to a very diverse group of homeschoolers, I mean it. I do not say things that I don't mean. And yes, they are homeschooling through every conceivable problem. Generally, I do not justify what I say to anyone but I will make an exception today. Off of the top of my head: one is a caretaker to a husband who is completely paralyzed, of a different culture, and they have four kids; one mother has five and she just did chemo; another mom just got two boys out of four boys into a major university, raising her sons alone after her husband took his own life; one was a single mother who died of a disease, but homeschooled to the last day; I've had friends who have homeschooled through abuse, adultery, bankruptcy; I've have friends and aquaintences who have one or two children--actually one child families are common around here, I just tend not to be closer with them because they are usually liberal; the majority of these people are not Catholic and they are not all Protestant. That's a sampling of what comes to mind easily and what I know about. I can't imagine what I don't know, some people carry their crosses very privately. None of us are special, we are all just doing our best with what we have. I would say that caring for someone who is completely paralyzed, but otherwise medically stable, is considerably easier thatn someone with my issues, even though i have some arm movement (although I could always be wrong). while you might know people in "every conceivable situation", you don't know our situation, and you don't know us, and you have no idea how complicated life is on a daily basis in our household. We are also doing our best with what we have, and it is not going well. You don't know me either and you still don't get what I am saying or that I have not told you what to do in your situation. Ultimately, at the end of the day you are the one making the calls. Do you want me to just say, "You have to homeschool or you are all going to hell" so you can get mad and feel like no one understands you and walk away vindicated in your preconceived notions? I am not going to tell you that because I don't believe that and also because I have no authority over you and yours. I was responding to your ideas on education, homeschooling, government, family, and parental rights. I'm sorry if you aren't intending to come across as sounding like a grouch but it seems that way.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2016 10:58:51 GMT -5
I Wonder of if Chesterton would support govt audits if they came in and demanded they only allow their child to read the books the govt approves.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 11:11:30 GMT -5
I would say that caring for someone who is completely paralyzed, but otherwise medically stable, is considerably easier thatn someone with my issues, even though i have some arm movement (although I could always be wrong). while you might know people in "every conceivable situation", you don't know our situation, and you don't know us, and you have no idea how complicated life is on a daily basis in our household. We are also doing our best with what we have, and it is not going well. You don't know me either and you still don't get what I am saying or that I have not told you what to do in your situation. Ultimately, at the end of the day you are the one making the calls. Do you want me to just say, "You have to homeschool or you are all going to hell" so you can get mad and feel like no one understands you and walk away vindicated in your preconceived notions? I am not going to tell you that because I don't believe that and also because I have no authority over you and yours. I was responding to your ideas on education, homeschooling, government, family, and parental rights. I'm sorry if you aren't intending to come across as sounding like a grouch but it seems that way. absolutely i'm grouchy, no question about that one. it's not just you, it's everyone, the same old refrain that basically says that if you don't homeschool you are just making excuses, and who needs formal education, who needs socialization etc. whenever this topic comes up there are plenty of people always willing to say that homeschooling is the only option if you cannot do catholic school and that sending your child to "state sponsored public indoctrination camps" or the "moloch schools" is the trad equivalent of shipping your child off to one of those islands in Papua New Guinea where they still practice cannibalism. theey point to canons like this which were written 100 years ago during a time where there actually were options for sending your child to a catholic school in every community. it's not like some trad convent school is down the street from us and we are choosing to do public school regardless.. we have limited options, and they're all pretty terrible in one wa or another. it does sound like you are trying to convince me that anyone can homeschool, even though we have been trying to homeschool and there are lots of challenges. you have claimed that you have seen that it is possible "in ever conceivable situation" and that i should just abandon any sort of educational standards or expectations, which i find disrespectful. who needs socialization, etc yes, i have known abunch of only children and children from small family households who homeschool and are socialized. the catch? they have stay at home moms who are willing to take them on a zillion playdates, and have them signed up for lots of different co-ops and classes. The children he does play with come from godless heathen families anyway so it's not that different from playing with the public school kids really. everything from homeschool soccer, science co-op, forest school, Russian Ballet, all the things he does, no one is practicing catholic anyway, because that's where we live. it has caused my wife a lot of stress too she wants to homeschool and be the "perfect traditional catholic wife and mother" and keep our son out of public schools but it is also costing her her sanity (she has some pretty significant mental health ccrosses to begin with). anyone who wants to judge us is welcome to spend a good 5 minutes in our shoes.
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Post by chestertonian on Jun 6, 2016 11:27:01 GMT -5
I Wonder of if Chesterton would support govt audits if they came in and demanded they only allow their child to read the books the govt approves. I'm not saying isupport forcing families to read certain books. but there are groups like Middle States assoc that accredit homeschool programs and o do support some degree of oversight. that is not "the evil govt telling Catholics what books they should read" For example, our lafy of victory and Seton are accredited programs.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2016 11:53:04 GMT -5
Cherstertonian, chill. No one is judging you. Least of all me. There is no need to get rude, defensive, or nasty, it's the internet so I can't actually tell your tone.
I wish we lived closer. I'd love to meet your wife, lend you all some support, and have some fun mom time, and your boy could play with our kids, they would really like him. They would probably fight over him. Ok, he would need body armor but at least he would have a good time.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 6, 2016 11:55:07 GMT -5
Chestertonian,
Just a few points.
1. It is an assumption that Catholic schools were available for all Catholics in former times. They were not and many if not most Catholic families dealt with the education issue in the best way they could.
2. So you know, the Canon in question, 1374, was actually a concession. It allowed Catholic children to go to these non-Catholic (public) schools, but required a dispensation from the local ordinary, based on two considerations: whether circumstances warranted it, and secondly that safeguards were in place to protect the child's Faith and morals.
3. Just because the canon is old does not make its wisdom out of date. Do you honestly think that public schools today, in regards to the dangers to a child's Faith and morals are better than 1917? Are you aware of the things that the children are regularly exposed to in modern public schools? I cannot say on here as it would go against decency,but I am sure you can get the idea. Also, I am not talking only about what is taught through the curriculum, in my opinion, the greater danger is from the peers in the school.
4. The Canon also, in addition to its wisdom, has a binding force upon Catholics, who are not free to disregard it. I am not unaware that the local see is vacant, but, if a Catholic is to presume a dispensation, he must also be morally certain that the bishop would give such a dispensation. In your case, it's obvious that you meet the first test of circumstances, but you should give a lot of thought and reflection on the second part: how do Catholics living today safeguard their child's Faith and morals when they put their children in these Public Schools of our times.
I am not sure exactly what the bishop would order, but I do know that if he were acting as he should, he would want to make sure additional safeguards were in place, more so than bishops of the past. The dangers are much greater than those that existed in the first half of the 20th century. Children today are being exposed to all sorts of illicit drugs and perversion in the form of images. All it takes is another classmate pulling out an iPhone, and showing your child an impure picture or video, and then your child is changed forever. You can't unsee what is seen. This is but one example, there are so many more.
We as Catholics are facing real problems that our ancestors never even would have considered, so it is important that we keep that in mind when reflecting on how our lawful bishops would have steered us in today's times.
Just so you know, I sympathize with you, as I can see you are dealing with a very difficult dilemma.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2016 14:57:07 GMT -5
I dont ever remember anyone in this thread telling him HE HAD to homeschool. Hes being way too defensive.
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