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Post by scholasticism on Nov 27, 2018 21:11:32 GMT -5
I notice a great emphasis on the non-Latin Rites of the Church, especially as having been a reasonable alternative to Novus Ordoized parishes being no longer Catholic in belief, morals, or liturgical, or identity. What would be most helpful would be an overview of these Rites, and especially with regards to their status as a result of Vatican II and subsequent Vatican actions such as the Balamand agreement and so forth. 1) How many non-Latin Rites are there (including both Eastern and Western)? 2) What are their names, and where are they based/centered/operative and what they are headed by (Patriarchs, Major Archbishops, other?)? 3) What other Rites existed but are no longer active (e.g. Sarum Rite)? 4) What different terminologies do they use, and do different Rites use different sets of terminology (e. g. Eparch, Metropolitan)? 5) What members here attend these Rites, either as one they were born and raised in, or as Latin Rite Catholics seeking refuge from the Novus Ordo?
I am just curious as my knowledge of these Rites is rather sparse and patchy. I have many more questions, but let's just start with these.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 28, 2018 13:22:41 GMT -5
I notice a great emphasis on the non-Latin Rites of the Church, especially as having been a reasonable alternative to Novus Ordoized parishes being no longer Catholic in belief, morals, or liturgical, or identity. What would be most helpful would be an overview of these Rites, and especially with regards to their status as a result of Vatican II and subsequent Vatican actions such as the Balamand agreement and so forth. 1) How many non-Latin Rites are there (including both Eastern and Western)? 2) What are their names, and where are they based/centered/operative and what they are headed by (Patriarchs, Major Archbishops, other?)? 3) What other Rites existed but are no longer active (e.g. Sarum Rite)? 4) What different terminologies do they use, and do different Rites use different sets of terminology (e. g. Eparch, Metropolitan)? 5) What members here attend these Rites, either as one they were born and raised in, or as Latin Rite Catholics seeking refuge from the Novus Ordo?
I am just curious as my knowledge of these Rites is rather sparse and patchy. I have many more questions, but let's just start with these. Hello and welcome to the forum. This forum is a home for Catholics who have retreated from not only the Novus Ordo liturgy, but the structures that have been formed by this organized group that opposes Catholicism, it’s beliefs and it’s sacramental rites. A poll was run on here a while back asking members to say where they would go to mass, the eastern rites were only one among many selected in the answers. You can see the poll HERE
The Balamand agreement is a problem, it was and is heretical. (It’s also worth noting as an aside that the Balamand declaration did not have any binding force of law in the East.). I have never seen it demonstrated that the heierachies of the east believe the heresies that are the foundation of the Balamand agreement. I am sure that some individual eastern Catholics Bishops could be found that adhere to its principles, but no serious effort has ever been undertaken to accuse all eastern bishops of all of the rites of heresy. I will now answer your numbered questions: 1. I posted two good charts s while back that visually helps to understand the different rites of the Church HERE and HERE
2. For the most part, the ”base” the rite, it’s see, can be figured out by its name, i.e. the ethnic group, Ukrainian, Hungarian, etc. I posted a list that explains where each eastern rite is based, whether it is ruled by a patriarch or a major Archbishop, and where they are found throughout the world in their diasporas linked HERE
3. In the West all rites under 200 years old were dissolved and taken over by the Roman rite by St. Pius V. In the east, most of the eastern rites were once in schism from the Church and then rejoined the Catholic Church. You can see the dates of reunion for each in the first chart I posted in #1 above. 4. You will find similar terminology in each of the general groupings of the eastern rites, but they differ within each grouping, ex. Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochian. 5. This forum has members who attend the eastern rites, and the Roman rite as it existed pre-Vatican II. The forum administrator, Voxx, is an eastern rite Catholic. I am a Latin rite Catholic who generally goes to eastern rite Churches. There are other members on here who go to eastern rites, and other members that go to different groups who the pre-Vatican II Roman rite. The poll linked at the beginning will give you an good snapshot of where many members are on this point.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 28, 2018 13:31:29 GMT -5
It is worth noting that any sincere faithful Catholic has a home here...Pacellis words not withstanding...even if they are still in the NO or SSPX or "home aloners". Its how they interact with each others that determines if they get to stay. see this: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/132/trad-catholic-groups-warned
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Post by scholasticism on Nov 28, 2018 16:27:41 GMT -5
[unable to get the relevant quote from Pacelli in the above box; intended quote is "5. This forum has members who attend the eastern rites, and the Roman rite as it existed pre-Vatican II. The forum administrator, Voxx, is an eastern rite Catholic. I am a Latin rite Catholic who generally goes to eastern rite Churches. There are other members on here who go to eastern rites, and other members that go to different groups who the pre-Vatican II Roman rite. The poll linked at the beginning will give you an good snapshot of where many members are on this point."]
What I am more interested here in would be those who actually attend Eastern Rite Churches (whether as their normal Sunday place to go or only sporadically or even one-shot attendance (e.g. while travelling, or checking out a place one would not wish to return to), which particular Churches have actually been attended. If I recall, Vox is clearly Ukrainian Byzantine (which is where he normally goes), but what other categories (of the 22 Eastern Rites and 2 non-Latin Western Rites) anyone has attended, on any basis, would be good to know. I myself attended a Ruthenian Byzantine church for a while, until one day the priest spoke heresy to the congregation, obliging me to stand up and correct him (and making me persona non grata there thereafter - just as well). They had no iconostasis (though I think they may have since acquired one), and people sat in chairs, though (up until his heresy) the priest seemed quite reverent and serious.
I would really like anyone here as has ever attended a non-Latin Rite church to "compare notes" about their experience in these churches. No need to say where or what priest or what city or state or country, just which particular Rite and what one saw or sees. I am sure that many have both their strengths and weaknesses.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 28, 2018 23:30:24 GMT -5
[unable to get the relevant quote from Pacelli in the above box; intended quote is "5. This forum has members who attend the eastern rites, and the Roman rite as it existed pre-Vatican II. The forum administrator, Voxx, is an eastern rite Catholic. I am a Latin rite Catholic who generally goes to eastern rite Churches. There are other members on here who go to eastern rites, and other members that go to different groups who the pre-Vatican II Roman rite. The poll linked at the beginning will give you an good snapshot of where many members are on this point."]
What I am more interested here in would be those who actually attend Eastern Rite Churches (whether as their normal Sunday place to go or only sporadically or even one-shot attendance (e.g. while travelling, or checking out a place one would not wish to return to), which particular Churches have actually been attended. If I recall, Vox is clearly Ukrainian Byzantine (which is where he normally goes), but what other categories (of the 22 Eastern Rites and 2 non-Latin Western Rites) anyone has attended, on any basis, would be good to know. I myself attended a Ruthenian Byzantine church for a while, until one day the priest spoke heresy to the congregation, obliging me to stand up and correct him (and making me persona non grata there thereafter - just as well). They had no iconostasis (though I think they may have since acquired one), and people sat in chairs, though (up until his heresy) the priest seemed quite reverent and serious.
I would really like anyone here as has ever attended a non-Latin Rite church to "compare notes" about their experience in these churches. No need to say where or what priest or what city or state or country, just which particular Rite and what one saw or sees. I am sure that many have both their strengths and weaknesses.
Feel free to post a poll of your idea. It would be interesting to see the results. FYI, though, some members here are off and on so as to their participation, so they may not respond for a while.
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