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Post by kim on Oct 8, 2017 10:22:49 GMT -5
I'm just having a hard time going with some of the ideas that trad Rom Catholics hold as sacred. No natural family planning even in the most extreme situations (12 kids, on welfare, husband with no job), no women singing in church, no women wearing pants, no dancing, no higher education for your children. . I'm beginning to wonder if I joined a cult and I need to leave. Not every single person in this chapel goes along with everything listed above but the ones that do seem to be in the majority and are fervent about some of this stuff as if it violating them is a mortal sin.
I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off in an Orthodox Catholic Church just keeping my sedevacantism secret.
So my question is --were Catholics this uptight about everything before the changes of Vat 2? I am literally severely depressed driving 45 minutes to this chapel. I gave up a great paying job as a Novus Ordo choir director and organist to go down there and play organ for them.
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Post by kim on Oct 8, 2017 10:24:25 GMT -5
And I am NOT trying to turn this into a pants thread and I have no problem whatsoever wearing a skirt to Mass. It's just everything combined.
Is it a sin that I prayed that God would take the babies of the woman pregnant with triplets who has 12 kids , a husband with no job and the possibility that they may lose their home.? It just seems nuts and irresponsible and I can't be happy for her.
And I have to sit around worrying that someone there saw Facebook pics of me in jeans enjoying my 30 yr anniversary trip to Europe with my husband.
Just feel trapped and confused by all this stuff.
If you need to ban me for Starting this thread so be it.
I just can't imagine Catholics were this uptight about everything in 1965 and I wonder if all these 'rules' aren't innovations. And p.s. I've never seen so much immodesty in art as at the Vatican Museum. There's one painting there even showing God's behind--seriously.
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Post by kim on Oct 8, 2017 10:50:12 GMT -5
And I don't know how to extricate myself from this group. I had to take a Vow that I wouldn't go to any Mass that's una cum Francis---extremely limiting.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 8, 2017 11:04:42 GMT -5
Kim wrote: Have no fear about this. You are bringing up a legitimate and serious problem within "Traditionalism," that goes back to its early days, namely, sectarian ideas intermingling themselves with Catholic ideas.
There was once a great thread, one of the best actually, on the defunct Te Teum forum, named "When Does Traditionalism Become a Sect?" It's too bad that it is no longer viewable. In my opinion, many traditionalist groups are already there, while some are close, and none are completely safe.
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Post by Clotilde on Oct 8, 2017 11:18:49 GMT -5
I'm just having a hard time going with some of the ideas that trad Rom Catholics hold as sacred. No natural family planning even in the most extreme situations (12 kids, on welfare, husband with no job), no women singing in church, no women wearing pants, no dancing, no higher education for your children. . I'm beginning to wonder if I joined a cult and I need to leave. Not every single person in this chapel goes along with everything listed above but the ones that do seem to be in the majority and are fervent about some of this stuff as if it violating them is a mortal sin. I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off in an Orthodox Catholic Church just keeping my sedevacantism secret. So my question is --were Catholics this uptight about everything before the changes of Vat 2? I am literally severely depressed driving 45 minutes to this chapel. I gave up a great paying job as a Novus Ordo choir director and organist to go down there and play organ for them. What you are seeing among traditionalists is not the golden standard of Catholic behavior or practice prior to 1958. First, regarding family size, large families had the support of convents and monasteries, as well as their parishes to assist with difficulties. They may have still had difficulties but they had ways to alleviate certain problems that are not available in 2017. They also had legitimate confessors to guide them through the morals of these matters. Your thinking about Rhythm is probably somewhat influenced by modern attitudes towards poverty and children. From my understanding, most women that had large families right up to the 60s, thought nothing of having a large family. It was socially and culturally accepted, the same way it is now to ask "Are you done yet?" Regarding the singing, I believe that the popes were moving in a direction with more lay participation outside the sanctuary. This is one thing that traditionalists get wrong. Changes were coming even if Vatican II and the modernists had never existed, and if we are honest, the pope does have the power to do all sorts of things. Hence, the dialogue mass, which I believe was approved in the 1920s. Dancing has always been allowed, just not those which are immodest. Higher education was permitted, but was not co-educational to avoid moral problems. Case in point modern college campuses. Catholics went to Catholic colleges. Catholics have always held that the religious life and motherhood are pretty much the two most important "careers." We do not have a situation where Catholics have the institutions of the past, they have to make the best decision possible regarding higher education, for both boys and girls. No one has any authority to tell them otherwise. I am not going to allow debate debate on the matter of pants and neither will Vox, also full disclaimer: I do not wear pants and neither do my daughters. I will state that traditionalists are wrong to bind on the pants issue. They have taken documents, made them appear to be binding, and many are unfortunately too simple to make the distinctions which would help them identify why these documents and sources do not bind. I know the type of traditionalists you are describing. Try to think of them with mercy. They and we all are deformed without our lawful pastors to guide and teach us. They get things wrong out of misguided zeal and while they know something is wrong but tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's all or nothing with them because they are scandalized and they are trying to protect their faith the best way they know how. They are not theologians, moralists, or canon law experts, but many of them lack reading comprehension or the intellectual ability to understand any of the above and how it relates to the present state of the Church. My advice to you would not to go to the "Orthodox" because first of all, you will be committing a mortal sin. I would just go home after mass and avoid the people at your chapel. Online? Avoid the same people. It is obvious to me that you are trying your very best, but you are coming to the Faith from a different place than many people and you also have notions from a worldly and non-Catholic life that you may still need to adjust. While we have looked into other people, we also need to look into ourselves. Quite honestly, I think you would be happier in an Eastern rite Catholic Church. Most liturgies are entirely sung by everyone, and they are more focused on keeping their ancient traditions than questioning your wardrobe. Yes, there are liberal Easterners and churches but if it is a choice between leaving the Church if one stays at a trad chapel, or getting valid sacraments at an Eastern rite where no one is going to bother you, I'd pick the Eastern rite every time. Quite a few Catholics seem to be making this jump, and I think the overall mess in the Roman rite is making it necessary.
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Post by Clotilde on Oct 8, 2017 11:21:00 GMT -5
And I don't know how to extricate myself from this group. I had to take a Vow that I wouldn't go to any Mass that's una cum Francis---extremely limiting. Someone asking you to take that vow should have had you walking out the door. No one has the authority to ask you to do that and you are not bound in any way. You were deceived into taking that vow, plain and simple.
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Post by Barbara on Oct 8, 2017 14:34:39 GMT -5
Kim- You've brought up several good points, and as Pacelli and Clotilde have demonstrated, you have come to the right forum to discuss these matters. You've been open about your background, and I admire your perseverance and think that God has a very special plan for you.
When I get upset or discouraged about the state of the Church, or of the world, or of my own life, I've always found solace, comfort, and strength from Our Lady. I am a convert from feminism, and it was She who helped me - and still helps me- to see the nature of true womanhood. She also is the refuge of sinners, which I greatly need, and is why I chose the phrase that I did under my avatar. I try to consider what she thinks of what I wear, what I say, and what I do, which in some cases is easier than deciding what her Son would do.
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Post by kim on Oct 8, 2017 15:53:16 GMT -5
Thank you for not judging me everyone. I went this morning and it was ok--I've decided to give it till Christmas cuz I can't bear disappointing the nun and the priest there--but will re-evaluate then.
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Post by udoc89 on Oct 8, 2017 17:35:55 GMT -5
God Bless you richly, Kim. We are all doing our best, and I know you are by what you have posted. I have only a diocesan Latin Mass available where I live. There has never been any training for us to decifer “what’s-what” from a pre-Vatican 2 point of view. This is bad, to a certain extent, but nobody seems too upset if somebody wanders in not dressed in a certain way or has no veil. Maybe this isn’t so bad—it’s not perfect, but we’re trying. Frankly, if an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy were available to me I would probably go. It would be a bridge to my daughter and her family who have chosen the Orthodox route—which breaks my heart. Don’t lose heart!
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Oct 8, 2017 18:33:40 GMT -5
Kim, I just want to say that what the people at your chapel dictate is not the norm for all traditionalists. I've actually never heard of some of the things you mentioned; no women singing in church? If men advise you to dress like Our Lady ask if they dress like St. Joseph, IMO.
Some of my family went through many kooky priests; one had men and women sitting separately and required them to read the Divine Office. Don't go to the Orthodox!
I'll be praying for you!!!!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 8, 2017 19:00:41 GMT -5
Thank you for not judging me everyone. I went this morning and it was ok--I've decided to give it till Christmas cuz I can't bear disappointing the nun and the priest there--but will re-evaluate then. You cant leave kim...you have the best avatar on the web.
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Post by chestertonian on Oct 9, 2017 7:50:04 GMT -5
This website has a lot of info on NFP (or as it was called, "rhythm") before Vatican II www.cmri.org/03-nfp.htmlIt seems that a lot of the opposition to NFP comes from laypeople and not traditional clergy. People are very quick to mention that you need a serious reason (and you do) but the laypeople at your chapel should not harass you about what is and is not a serious reason. My wife has gotten the third degree from church ladies asking why we don't have more children. Those people are lucky to be alive, haha
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Post by kim on Oct 9, 2017 9:50:30 GMT -5
Thanks Chester.
Why oh why didn't I go to the Byz Catholic Church first? If I had I wouldn't be tied down to playing the organ at this far away chapel because Byz is all a Capella. And I could go to Sat evening Divine Liturgy and still make my husband happy by being able to hike with him on Sunday morning. If I tell them I'm leaving to go Byz, I'll Be anathema as they are una cum and I took this stupid vow thing. I am so depressed about this situation.
You gave me the cutest Avatar, Vox. Why didn't I listen to you about Eastern Rite in the first place? This frumpy over conservative tradism is depressing the h out of me.
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Post by kim on Oct 9, 2017 10:08:13 GMT -5
This website has a lot of info on NFP (or as it was called, "rhythm") before Vatican II www.cmri.org/03-nfp.htmlIt seems that a lot of the opposition to NFP comes from laypeople and not traditional clergy. People are very quick to mention that you need a serious reason (and you do) but the laypeople at your chapel should not harass you about what is and is not a serious reason. My wife has gotten the third degree from church ladies asking why we don't have more children. Those people are lucky to be alive, haha Good for your wife.
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Post by carloscamejo on Oct 9, 2017 11:29:47 GMT -5
They weren't... Some groups are becoming sectarian and cult-like and it kind of disturbs me. If I remember correctly, you're from somewhere near Seattle. There's Corpus Christi in Seattle (SSPX) and North American Martyrs (FSSP). There's sedevacantists in both groups, so you'd be in good hands.
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