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Post by wenceslav on Jun 23, 2017 7:46:27 GMT -5
Dear Clotilde
I agree, the Church has changed disciplines throughout history - such disciplines are infallibly safe. But what has happened now is not from the Church - how can these changes which I discussed in the OP, which are done for the purpose of false ecumenism, which the Ukrainian hierarchy admits themselves, be from the Church. This is not the same situation as Met. Sheptytsky petioning Pope Pius XI for the reinstatement of an iconostasis. Met. Sheptytsky was a son of the Church who wanted a conversion of the Schismatics. The Ukrainian hierarchy wants the end of Uniatism, the end of the Ukrainian Catholic Church - changed into some ecumenical monstrosity.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 23, 2017 8:30:19 GMT -5
Funny thing is the schismatics dont want the uniates.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 23, 2017 12:19:58 GMT -5
Dear Clotilde I agree, the Church has changed disciplines throughout history - such disciplines are infallibly safe. But what has happened now is not from the Church - how can these changes which I discussed in the OP, which are done for the purpose of false ecumenism, which the Ukrainian hierarchy admits themselves, be from the Church. This is not the same situation as Met. Sheptytsky petioning Pope Pius XI for the reinstatement of an iconostasis. Met. Sheptytsky was a son of the Church who wanted a conversion of the Schismatics. The Ukrainian hierarchy wants the end of Uniatism, the end of the Ukrainian Catholic Church - changed into some ecumenical monstrosity. On the matter of intercommunion, I agree. On the matter of standing for communion, that was a former practice, the same with Creed. You may be right in questioning their motives, and I agree with you that in our times it is good to question everything. I am not at this time convinced that the hierrachy of the Ukrainian rite are all in heresy. In order for you to prove this to me, I would need to see a case made against each of them as individuals demonstrating that they have defected. There are some who believe the goal of ecumenism is to convert en masse the "orthodox" sects. Their ideas are misguided, but their intent is good. I would not accuse such person of heresy, so long as his beliefs have not defected, even though his manner of trying to convert the orthodox is a miserable failure and scandal. What I am getting at is this: what is the motive of each bishop in question. Do they no longer believe the Catholic Church is the one Church? Do they believe that the eastern sects are already in the Church as "sister churches with the Catholic Church"? Do they believe in the Vatican II heresy of an "onion" church, that all are part of the onion, "the church," but each layer is less perfect? If the eastern bishops believe these heresies, then, yes, they have defected. Conversely, presuming the eastern bishops do not believe the heresies mentioned above, and think that they are praying with the orthodox as a way to usher in their conversion to the one Church, the method is flawed, but they would not be heretics. This is why the 1917 does not label interfaith prayer as heretical in itself, it labels it with the suspicion of heresy. More investigation is needed to determine why the suspect is praying with those in sects. The motive of the act is key to making a determination if the person is a heretic.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 23, 2017 15:11:38 GMT -5
Pacelli
I never inferred that the entire Ukrainian hierarchy is in heresy. If that was the impression, I apologize for my sloppiness. I think we should examine them with the same standards as we apply to the NO bishops. The problem ultimately stems from the fact that we presently lack a true Pope. But regardless of an individual bishop's culpability in spreading false doctrine, the result for the average pew sitter will ultimately be the same - a danger to our Faith. Hence the valid reason for the Society of St.Josaphat. I agree (for what it's worth) that some Ukrainian parishes are a haven for a Traditional Catholic and we must thank God for that. But here in my locality I cannot find such a parish (The SSJ also states that many parishes and eparchies in Ukraine are the same). I wish I could but every parish here explicitly promotes communicatio in sacris - giving Holy Communion to The "Orthodox" and all the implications that involves i.e. a false ecclesiology. Some priests of the SSPX may promote the 83 code but that is rare and they explicitly say that they reject those parts that promote intercommunion with schismatics/heretics. Ultimately we are responsible for our own souls with the grace of God.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 23, 2017 15:18:45 GMT -5
Pacelli I never inferred that the entire Ukrainian hierarchy is in heresy. If that was the impression, I apologize for my sloppiness. I think we should examine them with the same standards as we apply to the NO bishops. The problem ultimately stems from the fact that we presently lack a true Pope. But regardless of an individual bishop's culpability in spreading false doctrine, the result for the average pew sitter will ultimately be the same - a danger to our Faith. Hence the valid reason for the Society of St.Josaphat. I agree (for what it's worth) that some Ukrainian parishes are a haven for a Traditional Catholic and we must thank God for that. But here in my locality I cannot find such a parish (The SSJ also states that many parishes and eparchies in Ukraine are the same). I wish I could but every parish here explicitly promotes communicatio in sacris. Some priests of the SSPX may promote the 83 code but that is rare and they explicitly say that they reject those parts that promote intercommunion with schismatics/heretics. Ultimately we are responsible for our own souls with the grace of God. I just need to note that SSJ when you say it is Society of Saint Josaphat not Society of Saint John! I didn't catch that the first time and was very confused! I think you have a unique perspective and much insight so please do not take anything I say as hostile, it takes a lot of distinctions and clarifications to verbally untangle this mess when we are talking about two rites, three different codes, and even the pope issue!
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 23, 2017 15:34:57 GMT -5
Pacelli I never inferred that the entire Ukrainian hierarchy is in heresy. If that was the impression, I apologize for my sloppiness. I think we should examine them with the same standards as we apply to the NO bishops. The problem ultimately stems from the fact that we presently lack a true Pope. But regardless of an individual bishop's culpability in spreading false doctrine, the result for the average pew sitter will ultimately be the same - a danger to our Faith. Hence the valid reason for the Society of St.Josaphat. I agree (for what it's worth) that some Ukrainian parishes are a haven for a Traditional Catholic and we must thank God for that. But here in my locality I cannot find such a parish (The SSJ also states that many parishes and eparchies in Ukraine are the same). I wish I could but every parish here explicitly promotes communicatio in sacris. Some priests of the SSPX may promote the 83 code but that is rare and they explicitly say that they reject those parts that promote intercommunion with schismatics/heretics. Ultimately we are responsible for our own souls with the grace of God. Wenseslav, It is a shame that the situation with the Ukrianians is so bad where you are. I hope for your sake that the SSPX doesn't fall of the cliff, that they seem to be inching closer too. It is not easy to live your Faith without the sacraments, I had to do that for a period of my life and it's akin to living in the desert with very little to drink. I think we agree on the core matter: if there is a danger to your Faith, you must avoid the Church/chapel. It was for this reason that I attached this disclaimer to all eastern rite directories I posted: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/742/disclaimer-advice-regarding-eastern-parishesThe only area we may disagree is where the line in the sand is on determining what the danger is that must cause us to avoid partaking the sacraments at a particular Church. I do not see the reversion to prior approved practices as that line. I would see the scandalous "Novus-Ordoism" of altar girls as a good reason to avoid a church as it is a public attack against the fact that only men can be part of the hierarchy. Regarding communicatio in sacris, if it does go on, it's private, no one knows about it, so it is not a public scandal, and the objective sinfulness of giving holy communion to an unworthy person is on the priest, not a layperson at the mass. It's not my job to interrogate the priest, to look for private scandal, but it is my job to react to public scandals that I witness, and evaluate it I must withdraw from a church or chapel. Regarding the SSPX, I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that there priests will obey canon 844, but that alone is a scandal. How can a priest refuse to obey the law of the Church? I am not talking about a particular evil command, but a sacred canon of the Church. The SSPX want to have it both ways, they want to say they accept the 1983 Code, but then on their own authority reject a canon. The very notion is a public scandal. I am not saying you should avoid SSPX over this, quite the opposite, I have the belief that Catholics should go as far as they can towards the line in the sand without crossing it. It's a major decision to willfully give up the mass and Holy Communion, a decision that if made incorrectly could cost your soul, so it is a grave matter.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 23, 2017 15:54:33 GMT -5
Dear Pacelli, Thank you for your nice response. I do agree with everything you say but at least in my Eparchy it's a bit more public - giving Communion to non-Catholics. And once you're in a parish long enough you get to know who's who anyway- especially in the Ukie community! And it was common practice to see Orthodox receiving Holy Communion- in fact many times it was written up in the parish bulletin. Case in point see the following URL: www.stjohnbrantford.com/faq.html. or see the attached picture below. Attachments:
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 23, 2017 16:20:33 GMT -5
I remember asking my Priest once ( Who kept an Icon of St. Josaphat on the altar btw) that I say the Jesus Prayer...he said thats an orthodox thing with sone disdain in his voice. He also as a canon lawyer was present when nope frank came to philly and openly criticised his (franks) program to integrate divorced remarrieds.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 23, 2017 17:02:38 GMT -5
Where do you guys find these wonderful priests. I really envy you.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 23, 2017 20:17:40 GMT -5
Wenseslav,
Things must be very strange in Canada, no offense to your great country, because there is none of that here that I have encountered.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 24, 2017 5:54:37 GMT -5
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Post by carloscamejo on Jun 24, 2017 8:43:51 GMT -5
Wenseslav, Things must be very strange in Canada, no offense to your great country, because there is none of that here that I have encountered. He might be from the central province of Manitoba where there is a very, very large Ukrainian diaspora - both Catholics and Orthodox. That's probably why. It's one of the rare places outside of the Old Country where there's a plurality of Divine Liturgies on any given Sunday.
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Post by Easterner on Feb 10, 2021 22:17:08 GMT -5
Why are these Changes treated as a bad thing? I am happy that I am able to practice my tradition given by my Eastern Fathers.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 11, 2021 6:43:48 GMT -5
Why are these Changes treated as a bad thing? I am happy that I am able to practice my tradition given by my Eastern Fathers. Changes are not Traditions but the opposite. And to answer..it depends on the changes what the Problems are. Right now I've rejected going to my birthrite because its Bishops have bowed to the wicked rulers and its covid lies...and have rejected the Promises of Christ....burning our Lords blood on wooden spoons or sloshing it in alcohol like its septic isnt the Faith of my Eastern Fathers ...not to mention the cancelling of Easter services last spring
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