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Post by Pacelli on May 7, 2017 18:10:45 GMT -5
Now that the recent discussion is settling down, and I have time to gather my notes and transcribe sources, I will begin posting some texts specifically dealing with non-Catholic sects, the definition of the term, "sect," how one becomes a member of sect, and lastly, a discussion to correctly apply these principles to the current crisis.
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Post by Clotilde on May 7, 2017 18:46:09 GMT -5
Excellent idea. I'm looking forward to reading this.
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Post by Pacelli on May 7, 2017 22:46:51 GMT -5
I ask those participating in this thread to read the sources relevant to this before posting. I will be adding more as time permits. The sources can be found HERE
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Post by Clotilde on May 7, 2017 23:11:45 GMT -5
I ask those participating in this thread to read the sources relevant to this before posting. I will be adding more as time permits. The sources can be found HEREYou are asking people to read something? That's asking quite a bit. Anyhow, I did read them and thought them timely and relevant on a number of fronts. Namely, against the erroneous ideas among Catholics that assuming someone to be outside (or part of a sect) the Church makes it so. In some, even many cases it is true. If it is necessary to make such determinations, we need to be discussing how to make them based on the writings of the theologians. Recently, when I have mentioned such standards regarding other matters, I've been met with dismissal of any sources. Secondly, and you probably didn't intend this, it could apply to the Catholics who could be joining or creating new sects within "traditionalism." Lastly, I would take this as a challenge to look at my own assumptions about myself and others in relation to the state of the Church. We should always desire to be accurate in these matters and it is good to examine our ideas.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 8, 2017 4:12:44 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 8, 2017 11:16:36 GMT -5
Ok so from the resources you posted this quote " Hence one joining the Masons in good faith, invincibly ignorant of their condemnation or censure, would not incur excommunication, for the censure of canon 2335 is medicinal. (52) Read more: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/666/non-catholics-sects#ixzz4gVLMsqymThis one quote seems to me to exonerate all una cum and alot of NO rite attendees?
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Post by Pacelli on May 8, 2017 11:42:13 GMT -5
Bp. de Castro Mayer asserted this as a fact, giving his reasons. It should be noted that he once worked with them, so that fact that he said this was big news. Also, de Castro Mayer was no theological lightweight, clearly he applied the definition of a sect to TFP, and believed this to be a fact. SOURCE
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Post by Pacelli on May 9, 2017 7:50:58 GMT -5
Ok so from the resources you posted this quote " Hence one joining the Masons in good faith, invincibly ignorant of their condemnation or censure, would not incur excommunication, for the censure of canon 2335 is medicinal. (52) Read more: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/666/non-catholics-sects#ixzz4gVLMsqymThis one quote seems to me to exonerate all una cum and alot of NO rite attendees? Yes, if they are not aware that they are in sect, and think it is the same Church of all ages, then they cannot be guilty, and by that have not left the Church, at least in regards to joining the sect. I would further say that the sect does not control everything that once belonged to the Church. For example, Ukrainian Priest X still believes and professes the Catholic Faith, and is running his parish. As a Catholic, he cannot be part of a sect, yet he still leads his flock, and let's presume for the sake of argument that his flock is still Catholic as well. In cases such as this, even though broadly there is a sect, there are still functioning Catholic parishes that are not joined with it. The appearance of submission alone does not make one a member of the sect. This is why these definitions are important, it puts an end to assumptions that all who are "under" Francis, are by that fact automatically enrolled as members of the sect.
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Post by Pacelli on May 9, 2017 8:09:58 GMT -5
I ask those participating in this thread to read the sources relevant to this before posting. I will be adding more as time permits. The sources can be found HEREYou are asking people to read something? That's asking quite a bit. Anyhow, I did read them and thought them timely and relevant on a number of fronts. Namely, against the erroneous ideas among Catholics that assuming someone to be outside (or part of a sect) the Church makes it so. In some, even many cases it is true. If it is necessary to make such determinations, we need to be discussing how to make them based on the writings of the theologians. Recently, when I have mentioned such standards regarding other matters, I've been met with dismissal of any sources. Secondly, and you probably didn't intend this, it could apply to the Catholics who could be joining or creating new sects within "traditionalism." Lastly, I would take this as a challenge to look at my own assumptions about myself and others in relation to the state of the Church. We should always desire to be accurate in these matters and it is good to examine our ideas. You are correct, it was not my original intention to apply this to tradionalist sects, but I agree, it can be applied here, as the case of TFP makes clear. The same could be said of all such groups in which the unauthorized leader unlawfully rules over the flock of Christ, and by doing so, sets up a parellel governing structure, a counter-hierarchy with the Church. Weber states, "all non-Catholic denominations reject some truth or truths taught by Christ, or repudiate the authority instituted by him in his Church , they have in some essential point sacrificed his doctrine to human learning or his authority to self-constituted leadership." I think it is possible to apply this to some of the traditionalist groups, some cases are clear others are not. There is a real danger in all of these groups, as they operate outside of the governance of the Church, which makes it a relatively easy road to becoming a sect. The only way they will avoid that trap is being aware of that danger, and actively resisting the temptation. I agree with you, our duty in this crisis is to be constantly challenging our own assumptions, the only goal must be the truth, wherever it leads.
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