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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 26, 2016 17:13:29 GMT -5
So Jesus on the Cross was wrong? Hmmmm...maybe you need to clarify your statement? He forgave the thief because the thief repented, if that's what you're talking about, which I assume it is. Unless you're talking about "forgive them, they know not what they do", in which case, that's not applicable to someone who knows exactly what he's doing, and does it with a full consent of will, which are the requirements needed for the sin to be a mortal sin. the point is the jews and Romans thought they knew what they were doing...so only God could percieve that they didnt know. The same with us...unless we can be absolutly sure someone knew what they were doing...and absoulutly sure they havent repented.. we must still forgive. Forgivness doesnt require us to have a relationship with the forgiven. |
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jun 26, 2016 17:22:19 GMT -5
He forgave the thief because the thief repented, if that's what you're talking about, which I assume it is. Unless you're talking about "forgive them, they know not what they do", in which case, that's not applicable to someone who knows exactly what he's doing, and does it with a full consent of will, which are the requirements needed for the sin to be a mortal sin. the point is the jews and Romans thought they knew what they were doing...so only God could percieve that they didnt know. The same with us...unless we can be absolutly sure someone knew what they were doing...and absoulutly sure they havent repented.. we must still forgive. Forgivness doesnt require us to have a relationship with the forgiven. Literally anyone could perceive that they didn't know, as they thought Jesus was a pretender instead of the true Messiah, as they admitted themselves which was the reason for his execution in the first place. I can be absolutley sure that someone who committed something like sexual assault knew exactly what they were doing, unless the person in question is legitimately insane. As for the second point, no, of course we can't be 100% sure that they haven't repented in cases where someone may repent by preforming an act of repentance, but not truly repenting in his own mind, we can be 100% sure they haven't in cases where they outright refuse to attempt the act in the first place. |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 26, 2016 17:33:29 GMT -5
The point is there is never an error attached to forgivness which is a spiritual attitude. The default and safe position is to forgive....on the other hand unforgivness is extremely risky. |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 27, 2016 11:09:46 GMT -5
BTW the Jews knew who Jesus Really was....Christ reveals this fact in the Parable about a king who had a vinyard. |
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jun 27, 2016 22:39:09 GMT -5
BTW the Jews knew who Jesus Really was....Christ reveals this fact in the Parable about a king who had a vinyard. The corrupt Jewish 'priesthood' knew who he really was. The commoners, not so much. |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 28, 2016 5:10:39 GMT -5
BTW the Jews knew who Jesus Really was....Christ reveals this fact in the Parable about a king who had a vinyard. The corrupt Jewish 'priesthood' knew who he really was. The commoners, not so much. And they were there mocking Him as he prayed for them. |
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jun 29, 2016 15:51:16 GMT -5
The corrupt Jewish 'priesthood' knew who he really was. The commoners, not so much. And they were there mocking Him as he prayed for them. Praying for people who haven't repented to repent is fine, you just can't forgive them if they haven't repented. |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 29, 2016 16:35:03 GMT -5
And they were there mocking Him as he prayed for them. Praying for people who haven't repented to repent is fine, you just can't forgive them if they haven't repented. I can forgive anyone I want for any reason...I forgive you for being silly...please submit a rebuttal to "Forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive others." |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 29, 2016 16:35:33 GMT -5
further I think you have a wrong definition of forgiveness. |
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jun 30, 2016 0:32:45 GMT -5
Praying for people who haven't repented to repent is fine, you just can't forgive them if they haven't repented. I can forgive anyone I want for any reason...I forgive you for being silly...please submit a rebuttal to "Forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive others." There key there being that there is no forgiveness without repentance. God doesn't forgive those who die unrepentant about their mortal sins. If someone 'seeks' forgiveness for their wrongs, then that's good, and once they adequately repent of such wrongs, we should forgive them, as would Jesus. It's a different story entirely, however, to forgive an active sinner, who has committed evil acts and is completely unrepentant and unashamed of said acts. |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 30, 2016 5:14:15 GMT -5
I think you are conflating acceptence or tolerence with forgivness. I can forgive an unrepentant wicked man as I strap him into an electric chair to pay for his crimes. |
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Post by mundacormeum on Jun 30, 2016 21:35:21 GMT -5
I've always understood forgiveness and repentance to go like this....for the victim's part, he should always strive to give forgiveness no matter what. I.e. He doesn't hold a grudge in his heart or seek revenge against his offender. On the offender's part, he should strive to repent/be sorry, and hope to be forgiven by the person he has harmed. However, if the offender is not sorry, then he is choosing to reject the victm's forgivness, and is thus "unforgiven", even though the victim is offering complete forgiveness. It's the same with God, as I think. God is always and everywhere willing to offer His forgiveness for any and all of our transgressions, but whether or not we are actually forgiven is up to us and whether or not we are sorry, thus accepting His generous gift of forgiveness. So, forgiveness is always on the table, and we are free to accept it or reject it, conditional upon our repentance.
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jul 1, 2016 18:58:52 GMT -5
I've always understood forgiveness and repentance to go like this....for the victim's part, he should always strive to give forgiveness no matter what. I.e. He doesn't hold a grudge in his heart or seek revenge against his offender. On the offender's part, he should strive to repent/be sorry, and hope to be forgiven by the person he has harmed. However, if the offender is not sorry, then he is choosing to reject the victm's forgivness, and is thus "unforgiven", even though the victim is offering complete forgiveness. It's the same with God, as I think. God is always and everywhere willing to offer His forgiveness for any and all of our transgressions, but whether or not we are actually forgiven is up to us and whether or not we are sorry, thus accepting His generous gift of forgiveness. So, forgiveness is always on the table, and we are free to accept it or reject it, conditional upon our repentance. Kind of like that, yes. No forgiveness without repentance. |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 2, 2016 7:33:22 GMT -5
If the unrepentant doesnt recive the benefit of forgivness that doesnt mean forgivness shouldnt be offered. And I can recive the benefit of forgiving the unrepentant despite his rejection. There was a man who I employed and showed great generosity and tried to help with gainfull employment. He was a recovering junkie. He fell back into drugs and robbed my home (he and his wife) when he knew we would be at church. We knew it was him...he robbed others and his own parents. Obviously he recived no more help or trust from me...years later my Priest pulled me aside after Liturgy and asked if I could reextend a hand for this man...ie a Job. I said no way...Father asked Why...havent you forgiven him? I said of course...but a man who cuts his own hands off cant expect to play piano...even if he repents cutting his hands off. Further Father..mthe man has never even apologized to me or attempted to restore the property he stole...so no Father I will not help"...not exact quotes but something along those lines. I think the true core of this discussion is really about resentment...can we give up resentment?:Currently I am resenting a dumb animal...a coon who killed my chickens. Isnt that silly. |
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jul 2, 2016 13:42:05 GMT -5
We're not required to forgive him, though, unless he repents. I guess you 'can', but it will be completely meaningless if he doesn't repent.
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