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Post by ConfusedCatechumen on Oct 29, 2021 21:51:47 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I'm here just to request advice on what I should do with regards to Baptism in my life situation.
I was called from atheism to Christ about a year ago, when one night I felt a need to turn from my sins and determine where the Church that Christ founded was. Based on Scriptural arguments (especially Matthew 16:18's relationship to Isaiah 22:22), the History of the early Church, and the disunity of the other "Christian" churches, I concluded that the Roman Catholic Church really was exactly what it has historically claimed to be - the ark of salvation. Not wanting to delay my Baptism into the Church, I went to the only Catholic (?) Church feasibly available in our town and began participating in the RCIA process there.
However, during the course of my research into Catholic Tradition and more recent history, I became aware of how much importance Vatican Council II had in shaping what most people see as the Church today. Upon becoming aware of the obscure wording of many New Rite Sacraments and the confusing (at best) statements and actions of recent Popes, I began to research the various traditionalist positions (mostly through the documents/resources on FishEaters) on issues like the validity of the New Mass/Sacraments, the the influences that shaped the VII documents, and the possibility of the Holy See being unoccupied at the present moment.
It is at this point I must tell you something of my life situation. I am sixteen, living in a very liberal, secular family. The only Catholics in my area are decidedly post-VII, and the nearest Tridentine-offering parish is not within a remotely drivable distance. This is my dilemma:
Should I wait until I am fully independent to be baptized, or should I be baptized now, even into a Church whose validity I cannot be sure of?
I do not want to participate in possibly ineffectual Sacraments or deliberately avoid acting on the Truth where I may find it, yet I also do not wish to delay Baptism, the only 100% sure way to be saved. Right now, I need advice as to whether I ought to continue down the initiation process I have been on or not. I understand completely that it is my obligation to Our Lord to maintain all truths of the faith, even if they will put me at odds with my parents, and that nobody can do that for me. That said, could anyone here help me, please?
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Oct 31, 2021 12:12:20 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 31, 2021 12:12:20 GMT -5
Are you American? Get Baptised...then go Traditional
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Post by Clotilde on Nov 1, 2021 9:23:03 GMT -5
I would consider that if your parents are not hostile to you being baptized, perhaps contact a CMRI priest and see if he can counsel you and work out a solution. They are the most willing group to travel, if need be. Second choice might be SSPX depending upon the priest, and there are even some good independent priests.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:26:13 GMT -5
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Post by RitaMarita on Nov 1, 2021 16:26:13 GMT -5
If your parents have not been against you being a member of the RCIA for your local novus ordo, maybe they would not be too against you being a traditional Catholic? Do they not care or do they have any prejudice in that regards.
I agree with what Clotilde said. The CMRI (Congregation of Mary Queen Immaculate) are definitely worth reaching out to. They will travel almost anywhere in the world where souls are begging for the Sacraments. My husband converted through them and it was one of the best and safest way to become a solid traditional Catholic without all the extra politics you might fall into otherwise.
May we ask which area of the U.S. you live? We might then be able to help direct you more to a particular priest or chapel within his driving range. Or at least the one closest.
Also, are you a young man or woman? If you would like more particular guidance or a mentor, I am sure if you are a man some of the men would like Pacelli or Voxx might help write back and forth with you a bit or if you are a woman Clotilde or one of the ladies here might be able to help.
I was in similar shoes to you when I was 15 and decided to turn against my fmaily's novus ordo faith and become a traditional Catholic. Granted... I had already been baptized and they were very against my becoming traditional and so I wasn't able to really practice the faith by attending the True Mass until I was 18 years old. But that is another story. 😅
Wishing you all of the best! 😇
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Post by ConfusedCatechumen on Nov 3, 2021 19:49:41 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your responses! I wished I could have replied sooner, but I have a rather busy schedule.
First of all, I do happen to be a young man, if that helps. I might appreciate a kind of mentor on this forum, as I am not really familiar with it.
I'm not sure I want to mention my exact location, but for now I can tell you I live in the central Midwest, in a suburban town not near any massive cities like Chicago.
As for the possibility of prejudice, I tried to test my parents' reaction to the various traditionalist claims in as subtle a way as I could.
Upon my mentioning the Latin Mass and Sacramental validity issues, they responded somewhat forcefully that a 'real Christian' shouldn't 'judge others' and 'be so legalistic and nitpicky'. I could understand how they would see that based on a certain popular interpretation of Scripture (disregarding verses like Matthew 11:20-24 and Matthew 18:6, Church doctrine notwithstanding). Their emotional reaction really showed their suspicion of anything resembling 'the Mideeeevil Catholic Church', so to speak. Upon my mention of the existence of Sedevacantists (whom I did not directly name, instead saying 'some people who deny the Pope's charism of infallibility), they referred to them as 'crazy conspiracy theorists' and 'right-wing nut jobs' in a very agitated tone of voice. They began to become a bit suspicious of my 'online sources' and told me rather pointedly 'not to let an echo chamber influence your decision'. If I were to request Baptism only through a traditionalist order, (especially one that suspects or outright denies the validity of who I'm pretty sure is their 'favorite Pope'), I doubt they would be favorable to the idea. I get the impression that they feel they are protecting me from a suspicious outside influence, a perfectly paternal thing to do, but I know I must strive to put our Father in Heaven first in all things. Because I only wanted to test the waters of their reactions, I did not declare myself as having any suspicion of the New Rite or the Holy See. I want to wait until I am sure enough in may position to make any kind of declaration.
My other devoutly religious parents are my grandma, whose favorite Pope is JPII (possibly Cardinal Wojtyła if you prefer) and my staunchly Baptist grandpa.
I am only vaguely familiar with the various traditionalist groups (SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, ICKSP), but your mention of CMRI's willingness to travel intrigues me. I would definitely like to look into them more.
All of this considered, I think I am able to leave the Novus Ordo RCIA process if I wish, but it might be a while before I can fit a traditional Baptismal process into my life, if I even can do so at this point. I just don't know for sure what to do with all this
Thanks again for your input. Deo gratias, brothers and sisters in Christ!
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Nov 5, 2021 19:22:55 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 5, 2021 19:22:55 GMT -5
Thing is young man we shoukd not be undermining your parents. If they are decent and honorable to you...be like Jesus and show obedience . Im not supporting error but these are the Parents God gave you to be born in. We are strangers on a forum. Not trying to discourage either...seeking the Traditional Faith is very good...but you must do it with out violating justice.
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Nov 5, 2021 19:25:11 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 5, 2021 19:25:11 GMT -5
Look into the Eastern Rites in your area.
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Post by ConfusedCatechumen on Nov 17, 2021 23:48:34 GMT -5
Voxxkowalski,
Thank you for your replies. It has been awhile since I've last posted. I've been ruminating on your comment regarding obedience to parents, and I wanted to make sure what I said next would be well expressed.
In retrospect, I probably should have worded my post better. I do not intend in any way to disobey my parents or undermine their authority. I just want to be prudent, and not want to make it unnecessarily difficult to obey God in the process.
I have looked into the Eastern Catholic rites, and the only one I could find for my state is a Byzantine Catholic outreach group that is farther than the TLM parish. I will probably have to either wait a very long while or try to convince my parents to allow me to receive the Traditional Sacraments exclusively . The latter will most likely involve traveling a great distance on a regular basis, if that even happens. Our entire family has a rather disjointed and crowded schedule, and I want to respect that. Like you said, I do not want to act unjustly towards my parents by insisting on my participating in any church that will require a long amount of time just to travel to.
My parents are essentially just like how I used to be myself, normal liberal and secular Democrats. I did not start to unravel my preconceptions on a number of major social and political issues until I was most graciously given the Gift of Faith. I'm not sure how to really convince them of the particular positions that I have come to about the Catholic Church (e.g. the doubtful validity of the NO, the dangerous obscurity of VatII, etc.), because I don't think I could've even convinced myself of the basic Creeds two years ago. We've been having occasional discussions about the Catholic faith, and they could sometimes get incredibly tense (such as one about my opposition to abortion that I started around the time of Texas' abortion law). In another conversation, I could tell that they grew rather suspicious of what I have been researching online when I mentioned the Traditionalists and Sedevacantists. It's clear that I shouldn't continue initiation into the Novus Ordo Church, but I also should not risk my family opposing my search for the genuine Sacraments due to the massive gap between their worldview and that of the eternal Church.
What I'm not sure about is this. Should I publicly maintain my personal suspicion of the post Vatican II Church and Popes, or wait until I am older and have more experience and options to travel?
I've had tough conversations about the Faith before (such as the aforementioned abortion conversation), so if I should have a similar discussion on everything surrounding Vatican II, I will know what I am walking into. On the other hand, even though some of the Vatican II documents (especially Nostra Aetate) sound like something that would provoke outrage in a Catholic church even two centuries ago, I know that I am still young (and no St. Robert Bellarmine) and that I should make my own salvation my number one priority. I shouldn't be unjust by leaving the issues with the Conciliar Church unquestioned, yet I also shouldn't be imprudent by provoking their opposition to my entering the Church. Any advice that the forum members here could give would be greatly appreciated, but at the end of the day I know that my decision is my own to make and nobody else's.
By the way, I found out where your forum name comes from. I might have to watch Gran Torino sometime.
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Nov 18, 2021 12:34:41 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 18, 2021 12:34:41 GMT -5
How old are you you seem very prudent and wise for your age. I dont remember all the details but your location seems to be a problem for you. But 1stly...how old are you
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Post by ConfusedCatechumen on Nov 19, 2021 23:27:12 GMT -5
I am sixteen right now.
What exactly would you want to know about my location?
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Nov 20, 2021 1:33:40 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 20, 2021 1:33:40 GMT -5
I am sixteen right now. What exactly would you want to know about my location? Nothing..except there doesnt seem to be any trad churches
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Post by ConfusedCatechumen on Nov 25, 2021 0:52:55 GMT -5
I happen to be looking for Traditional churches right now. I feel at least prepared to explain to my parents why I think the teachings of Vatican Council II are contradictory to those of the historic Church, but I should probably have a plan for what church to try to visit if they would permit me. Keep in mind that, as normal liberals, they may be to some degree repulsed by a Traditional church, which I can understand.
Clotilde had mentioned the CMRI as a group that I might be interested in. Having seen their website, they appear to be a group of priests with valid ordination that deliver the Traditional Mass and Sacraments in multiple locations throughout their day. They had a directory of Mass locations, and I was pleased to find a 'Our Lady of Lourdes Mission' in Milledgeville, Illinois that had Masses offered at 3:30pm by a Fr. Joseph Appelhanz. However, when I tried to confirm the location's existence through Google, it only seems to show up on that same directory. Midgeville appears to be the closest town to my location in terms of driving distance. If that mission is in fact closed or nonexistent, perhaps I should contact them in some way (such as through their email) explaining my situation. If that works, we could attempt to coordinate a travel plan between them, my parents and myself. If that seems like a good or bad idea to you, is there anything you would want me to know?
I looked for an SSPX location, but their chapels are very distant.
I have mentioned a diocesan TLM parish near me, but they also offer the Novus Ordo, and the priests there would most likely have been ordained in the New Rite. I would only commit to that church if there is absolutely no other option for my baptism.
Perhaps I should just wait until I turn 18. Delaying baptism, however, would be a risk I'm not sure I should take.
Any advice that the forum might have would, again, be greatly appreciated.
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Nov 26, 2021 21:06:22 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 26, 2021 21:06:22 GMT -5
Get baptised....no matter what...then wait on God to open a window. Also as long as your good to your parents...dont know why you cant explore Tradition..I wouldnt try redpilling them...just follow your heart..follow their home rules...pray for them and pray pray pray to Mary
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Nov 26, 2021 21:14:42 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 26, 2021 21:14:42 GMT -5
Remember what you're looking for is not evil but good Not sure why your parents would be terribly upset by this
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Post by Clotilde on Nov 26, 2021 22:42:43 GMT -5
I happen to be looking for Traditional churches right now. I feel at least prepared to explain to my parents why I think the teachings of Vatican Council II are contradictory to those of the historic Church, but I should probably have a plan for what church to try to visit if they would permit me. Keep in mind that, as normal liberals, they may be to some degree repulsed by a Traditional church, which I can understand. Clotilde had mentioned the CMRI as a group that I might be interested in. Having seen their website, they appear to be a group of priests with valid ordination that deliver the Traditional Mass and Sacraments in multiple locations throughout their day. They had a directory of Mass locations, and I was pleased to find a 'Our Lady of Lourdes Mission' in Milledgeville, Illinois that had Masses offered at 3:30pm by a Fr. Joseph Appelhanz. However, when I tried to confirm the location's existence through Google, it only seems to show up on that same directory. Midgeville appears to be the closest town to my location in terms of driving distance. If that mission is in fact closed or nonexistent, perhaps I should contact them in some way (such as through their email) explaining my situation. If that works, we could attempt to coordinate a travel plan between them, my parents and myself. If that seems like a good or bad idea to you, is there anything you would want me to know? I looked for an SSPX location, but their chapels are very distant. I have mentioned a diocesan TLM parish near me, but they also offer the Novus Ordo, and the priests there would most likely have been ordained in the New Rite. I would only commit to that church if there is absolutely no other option for my baptism. Perhaps I should just wait until I turn 18. Delaying baptism, however, would be a risk I'm not sure I should take. Any advice that the forum might have would, again, be greatly appreciated. I would contact them if there is a phone number. If no phone number for that mission, I would call Mater Dei in Nebraska, briefly explain who you are, what you need, and ask if Bp. Pivarunas or a priest could return your call. They will have an idea of who might be free to travel or for phone numbers of missions. They may even connect you with other people in your area. You just have to be patient and clearly express your intentions so people understand that you are serious. I have dealt with a lot of people who have done something similar, with time and persistence, things have worked out. Don’t be discouraged if your outreach gets lost in the shuffle or you don’t get a response right away, many traditional priests run ragged, and it is just easy to miss stuff.
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