Post by Pacelli on Jan 28, 2018 12:21:48 GMT -5
Eric H wrote:
In this post-Vatican II disaster, the idea has been floated that the Church can be without any bishops with ordinary jurisdiction, as long as it remains possible to obtain such bishops in the future. In reading Bellarmine I came across several passages that expressly contradict this. These are my translations of the Latin original found HERE.
Last objection: The strongest reason why occult heretics are included among the Church's members is this: that we may know with infallible certitude which society of men is the Church.But this certitude cannot be had, even if occult heretics are said to belong to the Church, as is confirmed by these arguments:
… Secondly, the Church cannot be without Bishops and Priests, as Jerome teaches against the Luciferians.But who knows with certainty who are the true Bishops and Priests, as this depends upon the intention of him who ordains them, and upon an invisible character.
… To the second [argument] I say, two things may be considered with regard to Bishops. First, that they hold the place of Christ, and that on this account we owe them obedience, and that they cannot deceive us in those things that are necessary for salvation. Secondly, that they have the power of Orders, and of Jurisdiction.As to the first, we are certain with an infallible certitude that they, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For their being such requires neither faith, nor the character of orders, nor legitimate election, but only that they be regarded as such by the Church. For as bishops are for the Church, not the other way around, God assists them, who are held to be such, that they may not err in teaching the Church. Therefore they are true Bishops, and Pastors, not absolutely, but as regards those three things that we said. Which is the same as if we were to say, that they are not indeed true Bishops in themselves (in se), but as long as they are regarded as such by the Church, they are owed obedience, as even an erroneous conscience obliges; moreover, they hold the place of Christ, in fact not in law (de facto non de jure), while they actually rule the people in the name of Christ. Besides, the Church cannot be deceived by them, as the Church cannot err, and yet she is bound to follow them whom she regards as true Pastors.This last is only to be understood, if for instance this kind of Bishops all agree in doctrine, or are supreme Pontiffs.For there is no doubt that particular Bishops, if they dissent from the others, can err. If they are considered in the second way [i.e. as to Orders and Jurisdiction], we do not have certitude, unless it be moral, that these are true Bishops, although it is certain by infallible certitude that at least some are true, otherwise God would have abandoned the Church (alioqui Deus Ecclesiam deseruisset).But that we may have a certain and conspicuous Church, as regards the head and the members, the first consideration suffices. (p. 69)
Now, that this true and visible Church cannot fail (deficere), can be proved easily. But it is to be noted that many in our times trample this [doctrine], when they prove that absolutely the Church cannot fail; for Calvin and the other heretics concede this, but they say it must be understood of the invisible Church. Therefore we wish to prove that the visible Church cannot fail; and by the name of Church we understand not one or another Christian man, but the multitude gathered together, in which are Prelates and subjects. (p. 71)
Ephesians 4: “And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ;” where the Apostle teaches that there shall remain in the Church this ministry of pastors and doctors, and the continuous building up of the body of Christ, and therefore the visible Church, until the day of judgment.For when there was only an invisible Church in the world, these ministries were not found, which could not be exercised unless the pastors and the sheep recognize each other. (pp. 71-72)
(pp. 88-89)
original post by EricH found HERE