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Post by magdalena on Jul 29, 2017 1:49:25 GMT -5
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turin
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Post by turin on Jul 29, 2017 12:25:56 GMT -5
I don't think he will do it. I don't think there will be an SSPX deal either. Part of me is curious to see what would happen if he did though, I think that would drive some of the Burke-Sarah crowd into schism and accepting the Barnhardt/Kramer idea of Benedict still being pope. Either way it's a lose lose for Catholic Tradition, especially if these "conservatives" convince their followers that they have escaped modernism.
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Post by magdalena on Jul 29, 2017 22:26:57 GMT -5
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Post by Clotilde on Jul 29, 2017 23:41:19 GMT -5
The whole thing with the SSPX is a wild card, while it seems they inch closer to a deal, I wonder if they will really do it. I don't know if either party really wants it. Do they want to make a deal when they know the goal of Bergoglio is to end them? Does Modern Rome really want to deal with legitimizing some very tenacious Catholics in the SSPX?
I think they can chip away at SP. they can move priests around, appoint liberals, and play political games. Meanwhile, are other Latin Mass groups really growing? The ones I've barely kept up with are totally different and much more mainstream than they were ten years ago.
If no one cares and it is rescinded, it's not going to be a big deal. People will have their little established enclaves (FSSP, etc.) but they will never grow. Their entire program is to contain, not to convert. As Rome crumbles and does not lead these Catholics, they will become less religious and their groups will die out.
Again, the SSPX is growing but to what end? I don't know. I think the entire thing hinges on what the SSPX does, or if SP is trashed, how the SSPX will respond.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 30, 2017 6:40:48 GMT -5
They should've have never put any stock in SP anyway...it was a moot document.
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Post by William Pius Robert Winslow on Jul 30, 2017 8:24:04 GMT -5
No surprise at all, if he really does that. Even he does not do it, his immediate successor will do it.
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Post by carloscamejo on Jul 30, 2017 19:51:17 GMT -5
It's this century's version of Fr. Alexis Toth.
(in other words; something that causes the faithful to go elsewhere)
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turin
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Post by turin on Jul 31, 2017 13:29:57 GMT -5
The reason I am skeptical about an SSPX deal is because it's been "around the corner" since I was in diapers. And I don't see why they (liberals) would want to corral trads into an organization even more hostile to them. Unless they're deliberately trying to cause a schism/jettison anyone remotely Catholic, which seems possible. But I can definitely see why he would want to stop the growth of the TLM communities, because the interest is booming, especially among diocesan seminarians and those young people who are active in the conciliar church.
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MiriamM
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Post by MiriamM on Aug 5, 2017 1:03:08 GMT -5
Whether anyone's fantasizing about SP or about any other strategy to defeat the TLM, dream on. The Latin Mass is not going away. It has too much of a stronghold at this point, and in many locations. It's not worth the effort and not worth the political fallout. And given how increasingly nervous many N.O. Catholics are becoming about Francis, the See would be foolish to risk more dissension than already exists in the Church as a whole. The N.O. bishops will just continue to satisfy the majority of lukewarm pew-sitters with an unchallenging theology and "spirituality" so that the diocesan coffers can remain solvent enough for local Church structures to keep operating. Shutting down the TLM would risk bleeding money away from the N.O., as there continue to be converts to Traddom from the N.O. every week.
And in case anyone's reading the recent so-called "Vatican rumors," it's fake news. We've had fake story after story, but still -- on a widespread level -- the TLM has not been vanquished. There's an occasional "lesson" from the Vatican, such as the FFI, but I suspect that was a small political job; it was to punish these particular clerics.
Many lay "purists" in the Traditional Movement denounce any relationship between the restoration and the N.O. "machine." I understand that concern, but the reality is that wherever the two are intertwined --even slightly-- the Latin Mass is actually protected. And as long as any particular bishop welcomes the TLM, the See will likely leave it alone unless that bishop is in open revolt against Rome.
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Post by magdalena on Aug 8, 2017 1:49:12 GMT -5
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Post by carloscamejo on Aug 9, 2017 9:07:26 GMT -5
Whether anyone's fantasizing about SP or about any other strategy to defeat the TLM, dream on. The Latin Mass is not going away. It has too much of a stronghold at this point, and in many locations. It's not worth the effort and not worth the political fallout. And given how increasingly nervous many N.O. Catholics are becoming about Francis, the See would be foolish to risk more dissension than already exists in the Church as a whole. The N.O. bishops will just continue to satisfy the majority of lukewarm pew-sitters with an unchallenging theology and "spirituality" so that the diocesan coffers can remain solvent enough for local Church structures to keep operating. Shutting down the TLM would risk bleeding money away from the N.O., as there continue to be converts to Traddom from the N.O. every week. And in case anyone's reading the recent so-called "Vatican rumors," it's fake news. We've had fake story after story, but still -- on a widespread level -- the TLM has not been vanquished. There's an occasional "lesson" from the Vatican, such as the FFI, but I suspect that was a small political job; it was to punish these particular clerics. Many lay "purists" in the Traditional Movement denounce any relationship between the restoration and the N.O. "machine." I understand that concern, but the reality is that wherever the two are intertwined --even slightly-- the Latin Mass is actually protected. And as long as any particular bishop welcomes the TLM, the See will likely leave it alone unless that bishop is in open revolt against Rome. As I said before, removing the TLM would be the Catholic* version of Alexis Toth - a change from higher up causes an exodus. It would end horribly. (*Ruthenian priest who took his congregation to Russian Orthodoxy after being told he couldn't say Mass by the local bishop)
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MiriamM
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Post by MiriamM on Aug 13, 2017 2:06:17 GMT -5
Meanwhile, are other Latin Mass groups really growing? Yes, they are, but not necessarily evenly throughout the planet. There are regions of great growth where particular groups and initiatives are thriving. Just because you don't see Group A or I don't see Group B does not mean that both groups are not visible and influential elsewhere. This is demonstrably untrue. Traditionalist apostolates engage in direct evangelization, in addition to ambitious missionary work. They are absolutely interested in converting, not "containing." LOL. Thank you for the prophecy, but probably we see different patterns, depending on location. The only thing I agree with is that the more fragile initiatives (for example, Latin Mass opportunities connected strictly with a diocese and with no institutional/group support behind that) would tend to remain stagnant or shrink due to the lack of a vibrant, organized traditionalist presence. Those locations consist mostly of sincere N.O. Catholics seriously interested in the TLM but not educated in Tradition/traditional liturgy and thus needing genuine leadership.
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Post by Clotilde on Aug 13, 2017 11:26:14 GMT -5
Meanwhile, are other Latin Mass groups really growing? Yes, they are, but not necessarily evenly throughout the planet. There are regions of great growth where particular groups and initiatives are thriving. Just because you don't see Group A or I don't see Group B does not mean that both groups are not visible and influential elsewhere. This is demonstrably untrue. Traditionalist apostolates engage in direct evangelization, in addition to ambitious missionary work. They are absolutely interested in converting, not "containing." LOL. Thank you for the prophecy, but probably we see different patterns, depending on location. The only thing I agree with is that the more fragile initiatives (for example, Latin Mass opportunities connected strictly with a diocese and with no institutional/group support behind that) would tend to remain stagnant or shrink due to the lack of a vibrant, organized traditionalist presence. Those locations consist mostly of sincere N.O. Catholics seriously interested in the TLM but not educated in Tradition/traditional liturgy and thus needing genuine leadership. LOL. Sorry, I forgot the [insert favored trad group] is going to save the Church! Thanks for putting things back into perspective for me.
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MiriamM
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Post by MiriamM on Aug 13, 2017 12:28:04 GMT -5
Yes, they are, but not necessarily evenly throughout the planet. There are regions of great growth where particular groups and initiatives are thriving. Just because you don't see Group A or I don't see Group B does not mean that both groups are not visible and influential elsewhere. This is demonstrably untrue. Traditionalist apostolates engage in direct evangelization, in addition to ambitious missionary work. They are absolutely interested in converting, not "containing." LOL. Thank you for the prophecy, but probably we see different patterns, depending on location. The only thing I agree with is that the more fragile initiatives (for example, Latin Mass opportunities connected strictly with a diocese and with no institutional/group support behind that) would tend to remain stagnant or shrink due to the lack of a vibrant, organized traditionalist presence. Those locations consist mostly of sincere N.O. Catholics seriously interested in the TLM but not educated in Tradition/traditional liturgy and thus needing genuine leadership. LOL. Sorry, I forgot the [insert favored trad group] is going to save the Church! Thanks for putting things back into perspective for me. Thank you for attributing to me thoughts I do not hold and exaggerated prophecies I have not made. P.S. My position on "trad groups" is that I support them all. Have a lovely Sunday.
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Post by Clotilde on Aug 13, 2017 12:54:57 GMT -5
LOL. Sorry, I forgot the [insert favored trad group] is going to save the Church! Thanks for putting things back into perspective for me. Thank you for attributing to me thoughts I do not hold and exaggerated prophecies I have not made. P.S. My position on "trad groups" is that I support them all. Have a lovely Sunday. No problem! Feel free to miss the point anytime! Hope your Sunday is great, too!
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