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Post by Vidit Lucem Magnam on Jul 15, 2017 14:03:09 GMT -5
Hi all, if possible, I'd like to field questions to y'all to help me overcome the mental obstacles I have come across in moving toward Catholicism in its traditional form. Maybe think of it as an idiot's guide. This way I can put all my questions in one place. I am also working with a very gracious traditionalist priest but some of these are not really central so I don't want to overburden such a busy man. Please note, these are not meant to be gotcha questions. Just things that pop up in my head.
So here goes... 1) Our Lady taught us at Fatima to pray "...lead ALL souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy" and yet universalism was condemned at one of the councils and the long standing teaching has been "there is no salvation outside of the Church". What gives here? Why would the Blessed Mother have us pray for something that does not match the infallible teaching of the Church. Conversely, why would our Lord fail to grant his Mother's requests?
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Post by Clotilde on Jul 15, 2017 17:01:10 GMT -5
Without getting into any translation issues and just dealing with this superficially...
"lead all souls to heaven" can mean and is understood by Catholics to mean we pray for the salvation of all souls, meaning that we pray for the sanctification of the members of the Church and for those outside the Church to enter and also to be sanctified. Example: a Catholic sitting next to you at Sunday mass, or for the conversion of your non-Catholic neighbor.
"Especially those in most need of Thy Mercy" refers to hardened sinners, those who are Catholic and living in a state of sin, or those outside the Church whose sin may be a stumbling block to their conversion. Example: a Catholic in the state of mortal sin with a hardened heart or the conversion and repentance of a non-Catholic.
Leading all souls to heave presumes that they mean the above, not "I prayed for all y'all, so now we're all on the heaven train."
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Post by Jayne on Jul 15, 2017 18:10:16 GMT -5
So here goes... 1) Our Lady taught us at Fatima to pray "...lead ALL souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy" and yet universalism was condemned at one of the councils and the long standing teaching has been "there is no salvation outside of the Church". What gives here? Why would the Blessed Mother have us pray for something that does not match the infallible teaching of the Church. Conversely, why would our Lord fail to grant his Mother's requests? It is God's perfect will that all people be saved. His permissive will allows for people to choose to reject the salvation He offers. (And because we know some make this choice, universalism is an error.) Our Blessed Mother has us pray for God's perfect will, just Our Lord did when He taught us to pray "Thy will be done." The Fatima prayer does not support universalism at all. There is no contradiction of the infallible teaching of the Church.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 15, 2017 19:59:28 GMT -5
My understanding is this should read..."RAISE...all souls to Heaven"...it is on the Rosary as a prayer for those souls in Purgatory.
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myrnam
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Post by myrnam on Jul 15, 2017 22:31:00 GMT -5
As already posted, it is the Will of God that all are saved, however because of free will, not all are saved. Many will be given extra graces because of our prayers for them, and when we get to heaven we will meet all those who we, through our prayers helped to get them there. We are not their savior, Jesus Christ is, but we can be His instruments. This is the greatest act of Charity when we pray for those who need our prayers, then it is up to them to cooperate with the grace God gives them.
Don't you wonder who was praying for you?
I often wonder who was praying for me.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 16, 2017 6:20:57 GMT -5
Lead all souls...is a newer version yes? Raise all souls...original version yes?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 16, 2017 6:28:41 GMT -5
Btw...VLM you should not feel any concern to ask a good priest any spiritaul concern or confusion ...or about anything at all about the faith...it is the spiritual directors duty before God to help erase all doubts or misunderstandings as best he can. The good Priest helping you finds much joy in trying to help you enter the Church. I assure you of that. Even at level 1.0 as you put it. Your Priest should be asked this question. Its not just a simple trifle as you see. We are just layfolk on a forum. You must promise me that at the end of the day the Priest's answers are the one you will accept. I have concerns about even so called simple questions in your case being misanswered or answered in a way that could confuse you. I am glad to see you posting though! Go with God, Voxx
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Post by Vidit Lucem Magnam on Jul 16, 2017 8:02:31 GMT -5
All great points and insights! Thanks!
Here is another question...
2) Growing up Anglican, the cup as well as the bread was given to all who received the Lord's Supper. The NO church now appears to follow that practice. However, Traditionalists do not give the cup to the laity.
Protestants believe this is an example of Catholics falling into error, pointing to Our Lord's command in St. Matthew 26:27:
"And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye ALL of this." (Emphasis mine)
And also in St. John 6:54-57...
"Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him."
I was taught that this meant all should drink from the cup, not just the clerics, so that all would have life in them and that Christ would abide in them. Remember, I was taught by Anglo-Catholics who believed in the Real Presence. I'm sure other protestants would say it's all just a symbol but that in practicing the ordinance, you should be obedient to Christ's instruction not a man-made tradition. (That old chestnut)
I've read catholic rebuttals to this charge, but the crux is usuallu that all of Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity is given and received in both the host and the chalice, receiving either is sufficient when done in obedience to Church tradition. (I also can see the argument that receiving the true host alone in the true Mass is infinitely better than all the bread and wine in the world if not sanctified according to Our Lord's institution just as a baptism is worth infinitely more than all the baths in the world)
But please help me understand why the cup is not given to the laity.
Thanks!
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myrnam
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Post by myrnam on Jul 16, 2017 9:20:12 GMT -5
As you described above the host is sufficient in that it is the Living God, Body, and Blood. Tell me which is better than since we DO receive the Blood; is it better to offer the cup to the laity when so doing the precious Blood is in danger to spill even on the floor because of accidents. With so many people handling the cup it is not necessary to abuse the Blood of Christ in this manner.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 16, 2017 9:41:51 GMT -5
As eastern rite I recive in both species. BUT...the protestant complaint on this matter is a deliberate deception. Before the protty revolution it was well established that the Lords Body and Blood is fully present in both species. This was simply an attempt to make laity and clergy equals...which is ear candy to the protestants..also a swipe at the true presence which was portrayed as Idolatry. This is actually one of protestants weakest attacks.
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Post by Jayne on Jul 16, 2017 10:36:00 GMT -5
There is an in depth discussion of receiving Communion under one kind in this article: link
Trying again: link
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Post by Lynne on Jul 16, 2017 11:10:03 GMT -5
There is an in depth discussion of receiving Communion under one kind in this article: linkI think that's a bad link... It goes back to this thread.
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Post by Clotilde on Jul 16, 2017 11:38:35 GMT -5
I'm heading out but, actually, Communion under both species can be given in any rite and it was given in the Latin rite for a good deal of its history. I've been reading and obtaining books on the history of the mass.
I have only begun to tackle one of the books so far, but that the way it was administered in the Roman rite fell out of use due to the was it was administered, there was spillage. I think Fortesque's work explains this and some of the other issues. I don't have time to get into them now.
The Host is contains both the Body and Blood of Christ.
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Post by Jayne on Jul 16, 2017 15:25:03 GMT -5
There is an in depth discussion of receiving Communion under one kind in this article: linkI think that's a bad link... It goes back to this thread. I wonder how I managed to do that. Anyhow I edited my post and I think it works now.
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Post by Lynne on Jul 16, 2017 17:27:29 GMT -5
I think that's a bad link... It goes back to this thread. I wonder how I managed to do that. Anyhow I edited my post and I think it works now. Yes it does, good article!
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