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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 26, 2017 19:48:08 GMT -5
And this affects the DL how?
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 20:19:16 GMT -5
Oh hi Vox,
Let me give you a scenario then.
My local Greek Catholic bishop allows Orthodox to Holy Communion at my local Greek Catholic parish Church and throughout the Eparchy (Heresy). I see my Orthodox neighbors receiving Holy Communion (scandal, sacrilege, contravention of Divine law). I ask the priest how this is possible. He advices me to follow my Bishop. If I have further queries he informs me of a document like the one I posted above which is the official policy of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I respectfully protest. The priest quotes the document and gobbledygook from VII. I still protest. He advises if I don't like it then don't attend! If you're in Slovakia you can add the NO words of Institution for the consecration I.e at least in the 2000s.
That's pretty familiar. Something similar happened to thousands of people in the Roman rite. Those that didn't agree left and joined the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI. Those that did not have a problem stayed in their eventual NO parish.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 20:44:43 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli, Perhaps the following will help in understanding the extreme depth of the Crisis in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Below is an excerpt from an interesting article from the Rector of the Theological Academy of L'viv (rector during the 2000s), Fr. Michael Dymyd. LINKThere is a lot of gobbledygook (like a typical NO presbyter) so I beg your patience but it confirms everything I said in the above posts. With respect to the Holy Eucharist (Section 8.3) - an example of institutionalized (by the Ukrainian Bishops and theologians) Communicatio in Sacris ( a logical conclusion of the false and heretical ecclesiology of VII) : You are confirming that the problem is large and growing. Someone sent me a link to a US parish, which like yours, is promoting communicatio in sacris. This is the first I have seen this being promoted in the US, so it is obviously spreading. Do you know what is Patriarch Sviatoslav's view on this?
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 20:54:16 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli,
I am trying to a get a very recent document published by Pat. Svjatoslav " Ecumenical Conceptions in the UGCC" and released in 2016. I have a Polish commentary of it and it seems nothing has changed but again I don't have the original so I can't be sure. I can't find it on UGCC website in Eng. or Ukr. Perhaps people here may help.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 20:56:57 GMT -5
Oh hi Vox, Let me give you a scenario then. My local Greek Catholic bishop allows Orthodox to Holy Communion at my local Greek Catholic parish Church and throughout the Eparchy (Heresy). I see my Orthodox neighbors receiving Holy Communion (scandal, sacrilege, contravention of Divine law). I ask the priest how this is possible. He advices me to follow my Bishop. If I have further queries he informs me of a document like the one I posted above which is the official policy of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I respectfully protest. The priest quotes the document and gobbledygook from VII. I still protest. He advises if I don't like it then don't attend! If you're in Slovakia you can add the NO words of Institution for the consecration I.e at least in the 2000s. That's pretty familiar. Something similar happened to thousands of people in the Roman rite. Those that didn't agree left and joined the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI. Those that did not have a problem stayed in their eventual NO parish. There was a difference in the Roman Rite. People fled the bastardized "mass." The east, although changes have been made essentially preserved their liturgies.
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Deleted
Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 21:05:08 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli, I am trying to a get a very recent document published by Pat. Svjatoslav " Ecumenical Conceptions in the UGCC" and released in 2016. I have a Polish commentary of it and it seems nothing has changed but again I don't have the original so I can't be sure. I can't find it on UGCC website in Eng. or Ukr. Perhaps people here may help. Wenceslav - In regard to the above, I found a link. I don't know if it will help. risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/ugcc/62061/
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 26, 2017 21:12:39 GMT -5
Thank you Veronica, Yes it's what I want but I can't find a link to a document. It describes the document but that's all I think. I have a small phone screen so it's kind of hard to see. Thanks
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 21:22:02 GMT -5
And this affects the DL how? It doesn't affect the liturgy, but it may mean that it is now becoming more of a reality that more heretics than previously thought are in the ranks. It does not mean, however, and this should be stressed, that this is proof that all or even most of the Ukrainian clerics are heretics. The only things I have seen proven so far is that communicatio in sacris is being publicly promoted at some parishes, and the Ukrainian hierarchy appears to be adopting erroneous ideas on the Church.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 27, 2017 7:48:58 GMT -5
But Pacelli,
Most if not all of the Ukrainian theologians promote sacrilege under the initiative of the UGCC bishops. We have the testimony of the Society of St. Josaphat who were "excommunicated" by said Bishops, we have examples throughout Canada, and Ukraine of this sacrilege. We have the testimony of the previous Patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church himself. If this was the NO hierarchy, any (Traditional) Catholic would have nothing to do with them.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 27, 2017 8:17:46 GMT -5
But Pacelli, Most if not all of the Ukrainian theologians promote sacrilege under the initiative of the UGCC bishops. We have the testimony of the Society of St. Josaphat who were "excommunicated" by said Bishops, we have examples throughout Canada, and Ukraine of this sacrilege. We have the testimony of the previous Patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church himself. If this was the NO hierarchy, any (Traditional) Catholic would have nothing to do with them. This was exactly the situation for Roman Catholics in 1960...Latin Mass liberal hierarchy.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 27, 2017 9:08:09 GMT -5
Voxx, you could be right. I am just opining. A sort of test I have used in the past to consider the orthodoxy of a given priest etc is the following prayer from my Greek Catholic Prayer book/missal. Heavenly Manna. published in 1961. 99% of Ukrainian priests called it rubbish. (It's easy to ask respectfully especially at a banquet etc Ukies are very kind people. ) They usually say it was a different Church, an outdated belief. They are just confirming the obvious, there has been a rupture in their Faith, - they can no longer accept the belief they had as children or when they were younger. I certainly believe you would be hard pressed for most Bishops in Ukraine to accept the above since this is a statement of the outdated Faith - the same Faith of the Society of St. Josaphat, and I'm am sure of many priests still in Ukraine. Just my 2 cents worth. Below is the scan from my missal.
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Post by carloscamejo on Jun 27, 2017 9:19:50 GMT -5
Voxx, you could be right. I am just opining. A sort of test I have used in the past to consider the orthodoxy of a given priest etc is the following prayer from my Greek Catholic Prayer book/missal. Heavenly Manna. published in 1961. 99% of Ukrainian priests called it rubbish. (It's easy to ask respectfully especially at a banquet etc Ukies are very kind people. ) They usually say it was a different Church, an outdated belief. They are just confirming the obvious, there has been a rupture in their Faith, - they can no longer accept the belief they had as children or when they were younger. I certainly believe you would be hard pressed for most Bishops in Ukraine to accept the above since this is a statement of the outdated Faith - the same Faith of the Society of St. Josaphat, and I'm am sure of many priests still in Ukraine. Just my 2 cents worth. Below is the scan from my missal. (As an aside, I've never seen romanized Ukrainian used before... as someone who can read Cyrillic, it's weird) Did many of the Ukrainian clergy see themselves as "Orthodox in communion with Rome?"
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 27, 2017 10:49:00 GMT -5
Hi Carlos It's actually Church Slavonic - Ruthenian Recension. It's wonderful, isn't it. The history of our liturgical language from the time of Sts. Cyril and Methodius. It's incredibly close to Ukrainian and Rusyn. If you have any insights please share. Are you of Ukrainian background since you read Cyrillic?
Majority before VII, were just Catholic, Greek Catholic etc. The term started with the overzealous Byzantinists like Fr. Korolevsky ( a protoge of Met. Sheptytsky. ) even the term "pravoslavnij" was replaced by "pravovirnij" in the Divine Liturgy long before VII to differentiate us from the schismatic Orthodox.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 27, 2017 11:06:13 GMT -5
But Pacelli, Most if not all of the Ukrainian theologians promote sacrilege under the initiative of the UGCC bishops. We have the testimony of the Society of St. Josaphat who were "excommunicated" by said Bishops, we have examples throughout Canada, and Ukraine of this sacrilege. We have the testimony of the previous Patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church himself. If this was the NO hierarchy, any (Traditional) Catholic would have nothing to do with them. Agreed.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 27, 2017 11:18:17 GMT -5
But Pacelli, Most if not all of the Ukrainian theologians promote sacrilege under the initiative of the UGCC bishops. We have the testimony of the Society of St. Josaphat who were "excommunicated" by said Bishops, we have examples throughout Canada, and Ukraine of this sacrilege. We have the testimony of the previous Patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church himself. If this was the NO hierarchy, any (Traditional) Catholic would have nothing to do with them. Agreed. This was exactly the situation for Roman Catholics in 1960...Latin Mass liberal hierarchy. Read more: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/848/kneeling-ukrainian-church?page=2#ixzz4lDi5kj9K
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