Vanna
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Post by Vanna on May 3, 2016 21:16:02 GMT -5
I have a family full of Protestants as most people on here know. My question is why does the NO church no longer take a stand about Protestantism (not sure if that is a real word lol)? Protestants consistently and constantly attack the Catholic church...and this includes the NO since most Protestants wouldn't know anything about traditionalism. Why do they not say anything? Has it always been this way?
I "argued" with my mother extensively on this subject when she said that Catholics don't understand anything about having a relationship with Jesus, that religion isn't the answer (please no Mom bashing...pray for her). She is sucked into this born again stuff and is now VERY heavily involved. It seems these "preachers" are constantly talking about the Catholic church.
PreVII was there a strong stance?
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Post by Clotilde on May 3, 2016 21:46:12 GMT -5
I have a family full of Protestants as most people on here know. My question is why does the NO church no longer take a stand about Protestantism (not sure if that is a real word lol)? Protestants consistently and constantly attack the Catholic church...and this includes the NO since most Protestants wouldn't know anything about traditionalism. Why do they not say anything? Has it always been this way? I "argued" with my mother extensively on this subject when she said that Catholics don't understand anything about having a relationship with Jesus, that religion isn't the answer (please no Mom bashing...pray for her). She is sucked into this born again stuff and is now VERY heavily involved. It seems these "preachers" are constantly talking about the Catholic church. PreVII was there a strong stance? The Novus Ordo Church has been heavily involved in all sorts of illegal activities with false religions that are condemned and forbidden by the Church since forever. This reflects their ideas on ecumenism and religious liberty. In simple terms, they would say, "We all have some truth and God loves us all, some of us are truthier than others, but let's not be judgy. Let's do stuff together to reflect that thought. People also have a right to belong to false religions." I find that the attacks on the Church by Protestants are generally against the real Catholic Church. Many will attack the sacraments, indulgences, infant Baptism, the real idea of the papacy..all stuff you don't really deal with in the Novus Ordo. Very seldomly, I meet a Protestant who will attack the errors of Mother Theresa, things said by Bergoglio, etc. They are actually pretty close to the mark on those things. I find that those people typically belong to conservative branches of Protestantism. Google anti-Catholic cartoons and you will find an entire history full of them but it is not the other way around. Catholics never handled things in the same manner as Protestants, we have the Truth so we don't have to resort to low tactics. Prior to Vatican II there was always a strong stance. You should read about Fr. James Coyle, a priest who was murdered by a Methodist "minister" for marrying his daughter partially because the marriage was considered interracial but also because he had been instrumental in her conversion. You will find in examinations on conscience reminders not to attend Sunday schools or Protestant Bible schools. There are condemnations against Billy Graham in old publications. They difference is that lay-Catholics left these confrontations, public debates, and most evangelization to the priests. They were trained, articulate, and did a great job. The average Catholic was sort of sheltered from talk and debate which would seek to tempt and ensnare his soul by the parish priest who would take an active part in the community. He knew if the preacher across the street was talking to the Catholic kids, and he would deal with it. He would probably even invite your family to dinner so they could see Catholicism first hand. We don't have this kind of protection any more unfortunately but it does give us pause to consider our situation when people do confront us.
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Vanna
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Post by Vanna on May 3, 2016 21:53:49 GMT -5
You are correct. What they bring up is attacks against the real Catholic Church. They just think that is the NO. I feel, especially with the situation with my mother, that I must say something. I have to at least present her with the truth...it is up to God to facilitate a conversion. That is definitely beyond me. Thank you for the information.
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MiriamM
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Post by MiriamM on May 4, 2016 1:55:07 GMT -5
I have a family full of Protestants as most people on here know. My question is why does the NO church no longer take a stand about Protestantism (not sure if that is a real word lol)? Protestants consistently and constantly attack the Catholic church...and this includes the NO since most Protestants wouldn't know anything about traditionalism. Why do they not say anything? Because the Conciliar Sect draws most of its converts from Protestantism. In turn, the reasons that Protestants are especially interested in modern Catholicism are: (a) there is so little distinction in worship now, between the N.O. environment and Protestant liturgies. N.O. parishes are Protestant-flavored, even down to the lingo: ~"Worship" has increasingly substituted for the word "liturgy" in the N.O. In the last 10 years, the introduction of the Protestant notion of "fellowship" has been sometimes aggressively pushed into Catholic settings ~The greater informality and "social" quality of the Mass -- before, during, and after -- is similar to Protestant settings. ~Lay participation is prominent at N.O. Masses, just as it is in Protestant churches. ~Presiders at N.O. Masses insist on keeping things upbeat, just like the optimism and "feel-good" themes of Protestant services. ~Body gestures of those attending often mimic those in Protestant settings -- wide open, lifted up arms -- that kind of thing. (b) so-called "accessibility" of language and music is a draw for Protestants. Definitely not. Pre-V2, Protestants were considered heretics and therefore a probable bad influence on Catholics. Protestants understood the importance of staying away from direct arguments with Catholics, and vice-versa. Now, in the N.O., it's considered some kind of a Catholic virtue to seek out Protestants and "evangelize" them by playing pseudo (untrained) Catholic apologist. The irony is that such tactics are thoroughly Protestant tactics. Never, prior to V2, were Catholic lay people encouraged to search for raw meat, so to speak. And priests didn't bother. They were too busy protecting their flocks from the World, The Flesh, and the Devil -- including Protestantism. Don't misunderstand me. I do evangelize. But I don't make "cold calls" to random Protestants. It's a waste of time. Rather, I evangelize Novus Ordites (today's virtual Protestants) to Tradition. And I evangelize amoral, materialistic atheists (my main population at work) toward morality. I also educate the latter about what religion is and is not, and how Christians (I normally can't get as far as referencing "Catholics" to such hardened unbelievers) understand the Godhead as something not consisting of superstition on the one hand, or an armed fantasy figure performing special effects, on the other. But I do all of this subtly, not by formal argument -- most of which is, to those who are that unaware -- a waste of time. Also, the whole "spirit of ecumenism" nonsense in Conciliarism discourages confrontation with Protestants and encourages "dialogue." That's why you don't see priests and bishops "taking a stand," as you say. I.m.o., however, the kind of "ecumenism" that is practiced today by priests and bishops is a fancy name for cowardice and lukewarmness. It's not really a theological stand so much as a convenient excuse not to profess the faith publicly, with conviction, and without apology -- which, by the way, is a mortal sin. In NuChurch, the greatest sin seems to be making anyone else --no matter how wrong, how heretical, or how sinful -- "feel bad." It's a really perverted understanding of the theological virtue of Charity.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 4, 2016 5:33:41 GMT -5
Vanna...in reference to your protty loved ones. You have to start small and from a place of humility and patience. Those are easy words to say I know. I have spun many a protty into a corner...but when they are strangers...not relatives...its easier...you can be more unrelenting and merciless if you'll forgive the use of the term.(you are in fact engaged in an act of mercy). But with your own mother...you're far too close to be swinging a broad sword. Try this: When you find yourself in the debate...stop everything and reaffirm your love for each other. Say something like..."mom...before we continue..you know I love and appreciate you very much dont you?" This will dispel some of the personalness so you can get some objectivity. Who knows the rest of the conversation might not ever get back to Catholics...but you will have a blessed heart to heart talk with her. (Side note you have to consider it from her side too...she thinks (wrongly) that her childs soul is in danger) Now as to defending the Church. Stick to one question...and one question only...and dont MOVE from this question untill you get your opponent to grant you the point. I dont care if it takes weeks months or years! In Christs Church....which was established first? The BIBLE or the CHURCH? ALL points and arguments prottys have dissolve or crack after this foundational truth is established. I have more but I have to leave for work.
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Post by RitaMarita on May 4, 2016 6:20:04 GMT -5
I have a family full of Protestants as most people on here know. My question is why does the NO church no longer take a stand about Protestantism (not sure if that is a real word lol)? Protestants consistently and constantly attack the Catholic church...and this includes the NO since most Protestants wouldn't know anything about traditionalism. Why do they not say anything? Has it always been this way? I "argued" with my mother extensively on this subject when she said that Catholics don't understand anything about having a relationship with Jesus, that religion isn't the answer (please no Mom bashing...pray for her). She is sucked into this born again stuff and is now VERY heavily involved. It seems these "preachers" are constantly talking about the Catholic church. PreVII was there a strong stance? The reason why the Novus Ordo church does not stand against Protestantism is because the Novus Ordo is too similar to them, and wants to have a world-wide religion... My family are all novus ordo or protestant, and some of my family have gone to "eccumenical" meetings where the protestant churches meet with novus ordo ones and discuss what they have in common. It is really sad and pathetic... As for helping ones family convert... The best means to obtain this prayer, penance, patience, and perseverance. Today is the feast of Saint Monica, and I think of how she converted her husband, mother-in-law, and son... She did it through example and soft-spoken words, along with prayer and penance. So, I think, must we also act. If someone wants to know the truth, they will ask us, but otherwise, arguing will only harden their hearts. Please pray for my family, and I will pray for yours! Keep fighting and may God bless you!
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Post by Clotilde on May 4, 2016 6:29:54 GMT -5
Vanna...in reference to your protty loved ones. You have to start small and from a place of humility and patience. Those are easy words to say I know. I have spun many a protty into a corner...but when they are strangers...not relatives...its easier...you can be more unrelenting and merciless if you'll forgive the use of the term.(you are in fact engaged in an act of mercy). But with your own mother...you're far too close to be swinging a broad sword. Try this: When you find yourself in the debate...stop everything and reaffirm your love for each other. Say something like..."mom...before we continue..you know I love and appreciate you very much dont you?" This will dispel some of the personalness so you can get some objectivity. Who knows the rest of the conversation might not ever get back to Catholics...but you will have a blessed heart to heart talk with her. (Side note you have to consider it from her side too...she thinks (wrongly) that her childs soul is in danger) Now as to defending the Church. Stick to one question...and one question only...and dont MOVE from this question untill you get your opponent to grant you the point. I dont care if it takes weeks months or years! In Christs Church....which was established first? The BIBLE or the CHURCH? ALL points and arguments prottys have dissolve or crack after this foundational truth is established. I have more but I have to leave for work. Yes. Don't be hesitate to ask the Holy Ghost to help you before you speak, too.
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Post by Temporary on May 4, 2016 6:34:00 GMT -5
Why does the Novus Ordo church no longer take a stand about Protestantism? That's actually quite simple. The Novus Ordo church is merely another brand of Protestantism. It is not Catholic. It really is that simple.
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Post by jen51 on May 4, 2016 7:05:44 GMT -5
I "argued" with my mother extensively on this subject when she said that Catholics don't understand anything about having a relationship with Jesus, that religion isn't the answer (please no Mom bashing...pray for her). She is sucked into this born again stuff and is now VERY heavily involved. It seems these "preachers" are constantly talking about the Catholic church. Oh, yes. Born again is one of those Protestant phrases that drive me up that wall. That, or "Saved". They're always talking about being saved, or talking about someone else not being saved, or being saved. "So and so is acting like that because they aren't saved. We need to pray that they'll accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior." My husband, while clicking through the radio stations the other day, heard a Protestant saying, "I was so hungry for the word, I just devoured the word." I know "The Word" is used by Catholics too, but it's left a very sour taste in my mouth at this point, because Protestants are always saying the "The Word" is all you need. I agree with the others saying that the NO doesn't take a strong stance against Protestantism because they are basically Protestants. It's pretty sad when the timeless Catholic Church decides it wants to be like Protestants. I was raised Lutheran. The NO Mass is nearly identical to a Lutheran Service. Lutheran's came up with it first.
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Caillin
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Post by Caillin on May 4, 2016 8:36:16 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 4, 2016 9:29:04 GMT -5
Its really as simple as forcing them to answer the one question. Which did Christ establish first...the Bible or the Church? (REmind them the OT is only half of the bible)
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Post by Clotilde on May 4, 2016 9:40:54 GMT -5
Its really as simple as forcing them to answer the one question. Which did Christ establish first...the Bible or the Church? (REmind them the OT is only half of the bible) It is a problem for some denominations to ask this question because they either have distorted history or they actually agree the "church" came first, and will even agree about history up to a point. I deal with with a lot of people who are Calvinist-types. They actually agree with the Catholic Church in many areas but their problem is "Protestant Pride" they've actually convinced themselves that the devils of their revolt are heroes.
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Vanna
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Post by Vanna on May 4, 2016 10:12:58 GMT -5
The point we were discussing recently is she feels that the Catholic Church is all ritual and rules when all you really need to get into Heaven is "to accept Jesus as your Personal Savior". Say some Jesus prayer and boom you are a card carrying member of the "Get into Heaven" club. What I said to her, and who knows if it was effective, was even Satan/demons believe in Jesus. Why else would they tremble at His name? It's not just belief but OBEDIENCE. The Catholic Church has the perfect plan for this obedience for the true followers of Christ.
She countered with "but God is pure Love". Yes, he is but love without discipline is no love at all. We see that played out every single day through selfish adult-children who were "loved to pieces" but given no rules or real discipline from their parents. Those parents may have loved their children emotionally but not loved them in a true sense. God is NOT just emotion!
She had a "preacher" (and I use that term VERY loosely) playing on tv. This woman (again loose use of the word) said "we are breaking all the rules! I hate rules! I hate religion! Those are what keep you from God!" Wow. I said, "what rules is she talking about? She can't be talking about the Catholic Church since she isn't Catholic and never has been. What rules is she breaking? The Ten Commandments?" My mom said "I don't know." Well, I happen to know this "woman" has been married 3 times all while preaching and claiming to be saved...so I guess adultery is one of the rules she is ok with breaking.
Sigh!
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MiriamM
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Post by MiriamM on May 4, 2016 10:52:30 GMT -5
Vanna, It's always best, when arguing in any disciplined way, to use your opponent's premises. In that way you can argue from both ends. Thus,
(1) Where, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke), does Jesus Christ say, "All you need do to attain salvation is accept me as your personal Savior"? Make her point out chapter and verse. She won't find it there (or anywhere else). In this Sermon, Jesus Christ, her Savior, sets down precisely what one needs to gain eternal life. And what is prescribed is a set of rules. And why does Jesus say rules are important? Because it's the only way we show our love for Him. ("If you love me, keep my commandments.") Yes, love is key and love is central. And it is explicated by God Himself, Second Person of the Trinity, who interprets for us, in that sermon, the 10 Commandments and the extent of those Commandments.
And in that, you are relying on the only authority Protestants say exists, the Bible.
(2) If/when, on the flip side, she wants to argue that the Magisterium has no authority, and all is contained in the Bible, ask her where in the Bible Jesus, or any of the prophets before Him, or the apostles after Him, spoke of Sola Scriptura. Prior to Jesus' appearance on Earth, the Israelites looked to religious authorities within their communities to interpret The Law. In the early Church, the Christian communities did the same. Private (individual) Interpretation of Scripture is no more rooted in the Bible than is private (individual) "acceptance of Jesus as my personal Savior." Both reliance on Scripture and private interpretation of it are modern inventions which have no historical basis in the message of Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity.
The individual is accountable in the Bible, but the individual is not an authority, not the source of Truth, and not independently able to effect his own salvation by mere personal affirmation.
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