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Post by anthonyabhilesh on Jan 18, 2024 23:08:52 GMT -5
Hi. I'm Abhilesh from Sri Lanka and I'm new to Sedevacantism. I found this quote from an article supporting the Recognize and Resist ideology, that a heretical pope cannot be ipso facto deposed. I need to clarify whether it is true. This quote can also be found in Vatican II's Nostra Aetate. This is from a letter written by Pope Gregory VII as a diplomatic correspondence with a Muslim king.
"They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. Pope Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A.),
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jan 19, 2024 1:03:59 GMT -5
Do you have the context for this quote (i.e. the rest of the text) and a source for it?
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Post by anthonyabhilesh on Jan 19, 2024 7:27:30 GMT -5
From Letter XXI of Pope St. Gregory VII (†1085) to the (Muslim) King of Mauritania:
"[F]or Almighty God, Who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself.
"This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.'
"This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities.
[. . .]
"For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God Himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.'
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Post by anthonyabhilesh on Jan 19, 2024 8:21:16 GMT -5
Do you have the context for this quote (i.e. the rest of the text) and a source for it? I have posted the quote with the context above. I couldn't find the full text.
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 19, 2024 11:20:20 GMT -5
I am busy right now, but this is just another weak argument, and I will answer it later. The text is legit, I have the full letter of the Pope, and will post it, it's just the conclusion drawn from it that is wrong.
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 19, 2024 15:45:12 GMT -5
Here is the Pope Gregory VII's letter to King Anazir that allegedly professes heresy: drive.google.com/file/d/1hnovDOROG6KPAH5QMLNc-qSbwoqbZXT7/view?usp=drivesdkNow let's look very carefully at what the Pope said. The Pope, clearly seeing the good will of King Anazir, a Muslim king, who was one that was showing respect and high regard to St. Peter's successor by sending gifts and releasing Catholic captives, said kind words to the king in thanks to him. It is a twisting of these words of the Pope to construe a heretical meaning. The Pope said: Some points on the letter: 1. The Pope clearly recognizes and praises the king's good will and good actions, and attributes the source of these actions to God. 2. The Islamic religion is a heresy, not a non-Christian religion. The highly regarded Catholic historian Belloc explains this point very well, see HERE. As members of a heretical sect they do worship the one true God, they just do not worship Him in the manner in which they must. 3. This sect professes belief in the one true God, and they are not Pagans or any other sort of polytheists. They worship the one God, but as stated above, they worship Him in a manner that is not the way in which He revealed that He wishes to be worshipped and adored. 4. The Pope is acknowledging that that they do offer daily praise and worship to God the creator, just as we do, so what he said is a perfectly true statement. He never said their worship is the same type of worship or is in any way equivalent as that which comes from the revealed religion, the Catholic Church. This is something that we have in common with all who worship the one God, but it doesn't mean that we have many other things not in common as well. The Pope didn't deny that either, he just clearly chose not to address it in this letter. This letter was not an apology for the Faith, it was a "thank you" letter for good shown by a non-Catholic king that was being friendly towards the Church. 5. At no point did the Pope deny any Catholic teaching in this letter. I grant that the letter is not clear and to some degree ambiguous, but this is a private letter, not a magisterial document. The letter does not contain any statement which is heretical or erroneous. 6. The Pope never stated the following: a. That this sect is a means of salvation. b. That the worship rites of this sect are pleasing to God. c. That the worship of the Muslims and Catholics are equal. d. That the worship of the one God in the Muslim sect is complete or is equal to that of the Church. e. That there is salvation outside the Church. 7. It seems obvious that what the Pope is praising, as demonstrated by the first paragraph quoted above, is the obvious and external good will and dispositions that the king is showing, and that there is a foundation here to build on, to keep on the path to the truth, as the king already believes and worships the one true God, even though incorrectly. 8. The contents of this letter is in no way the same as the novel doctrine being taught at Vatican II and what came after.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 19, 2024 15:53:14 GMT -5
I agree....but the question remaining DO we worship the SAME GOD as Islam? God is Trinity.. they deny and even blaspheme the Trinity. Their description of ALLAH in their books bares little resemblance to God...the only thing that is the same is that God is One.
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Post by patricius on Jan 19, 2024 16:41:43 GMT -5
No problem with anything else, but "Same God" is quite the shock. I found the supposed Latin text for that paragraph earlier today;
Hanc itaque charitatem nos et vos specialibus nobis quam caeteris gentibus debemus, qui unum Deum, licet diverso modo, credimus et confitemur, qui eum Creatorem saeculorum et gubernatorem hujus mundi quotidie laudamus et veneramur. Nam sicut Apostolus dicit: Ipse est pax nostra qui fecit utraque unum (Ephes. II).
An instant web translation is hardly authoritative, yet it translated unum Deum as one God. Now before I apologise to someone, is the translation of "the same God" certain?
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jan 19, 2024 18:04:28 GMT -5
Does he have an out with the "...though in diverse forms" Pacelli?
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 19, 2024 18:09:23 GMT -5
Does he have an out with the "...though in diverse forms" Pacelli ? Yes, where is the contradiction to the Faith? This is a statement of fact, nothing more.
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 19, 2024 18:19:14 GMT -5
I agree....but the question remaining DO we worship the SAME GOD as Islam? God is Trinity.. they deny and even blaspheme the Trinity. Their description of ALLAH in their books bares little resemblance to God...the only thing that is the same is that God is One. Well, they are not worshipping Zeus, Jupiter or any other false god. They are worshiping the same God the creator who revealed truths and identified Himself in the Old Testament. There is only one God that created the world, and that's the one they worship. This doesn't mean that the worship rites of the sect are pleasing to God, but the individual's prayers may be, not due to the sect, but due to the creature praying to his Creator. You should read the book I gave by Belloc in which he carefully explains why they are heretics. Their sect developed on the belief in one God, the God who created the world. There is only one God that created the world. They are not Pagans. They do not believe all revealed truth, only a small fraction, but they believe some.
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 19, 2024 18:34:14 GMT -5
St. Alphonsus is another good source on this, and he briefly explains them in his book, History of Heresies, pp. 177-178. He references another book that he discussed them more in detail, but I don't think it's translated. He also affirms that they believe in the same God as Adam, Noah, Abraham, and the Prophets. This is clearly the same God we believe in. They deny truths about God and his revelation which makes them by definition heretics, but that doesn't change the fact that they are worshipping the one God, not a false god. The fact that their method of worshiping is not revealed or authorized by God is a separate matter. What makes one an unbeliever, Pagan or apostate is very different from what makes one a heretic. All heretics believe in and worship the one God. They go astray by denying one or more points of revealed truth. In the present discussion, I would say almost all of revealed truth. The book is linked here: archive.org/details/historyofheresie00ligu/page/176/mode/2up
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 20, 2024 18:14:48 GMT -5
Does he have an out with the "...though in diverse forms" Pacelli ? Yes, where is the contradiction to the Faith? This is a statement of fact, nothing more. Its very rare I disagree...but The muslim god might as well be jupiter..and many pagans have creator gods. It seems to me that unless its the Trinity its not God at all...there are no " diverse" forms
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 20, 2024 19:46:12 GMT -5
Yes, where is the contradiction to the Faith? This is a statement of fact, nothing more. It's very rare I disagree...but The muslim god might as well be jupiter..and many pagans have creator gods. It seems to me that unless its the Trinity its not God at all...there are no " diverse" forms That's not how Catholic theology treats this. The difference with Pagans, is that the Muslims only have one God, and they believe that the one God is the God who made Adam and sent the prophets. That's clearly not Pagan. I would urge you to read the sources I posted. That is why they are labeled as a heresy The denial of the Trinity is a heresy, it's not a denial of the one God who created us.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jan 20, 2024 22:43:05 GMT -5
It's very rare I disagree...but The muslim god might as well be jupiter..and many pagans have creator gods. It seems to me that unless its the Trinity its not God at all...there are no " diverse" forms That's not how Catholic theology treats this. The difference with Pagans, is that the Muslims only have one God, and they believe that the one God is the God who made Adam and sent the prophets. That's clearly not Pagan. I would urge you to read the sources I posted. That is why they are labeled as a heresy The denial of the Trinity is a heresy, it's not a denial of the one God who created us. So would modern-day persons who say that they are Jews but are not who follow the Talmud and believe that Adam was a hermaphrodite [ 1, 2, 3, 4] and that because god created him/her in his/her image and likeness that god is a hermaphrodite [ 1] or both he and she without body [ 1, 2] also be a heresy, or total apostasy? I should add, that I don't think it's a coincidence that the last three Vatican II nopes have been referring to God in both feminine and masculine terms.
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