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Post by Pacelli on Oct 30, 2023 10:26:02 GMT -5
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John Lewis
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Reviewing the Knowledge
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Post by John Lewis on Oct 30, 2023 13:51:29 GMT -5
I've read the Church or public oratory must be a diocesan one in order to gain the indulgence in this article by Fr Hervé Belmont, translated from French using DeepL translator.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 30, 2023 14:15:57 GMT -5
John Lewis , Yes, he is correct. Indulgences are very specific, and if they are not followed exactly, the indulgence is not given. In order to obtain these indulgences, one must go to a Church, and that means a canonical Church or an approved oratory. Traditionalist chapels are not canonical churches or oratories. They are private chapels. The eastern rite parishes and oratories are a good option. Also, I do not believe the use of the Novus Ordo Missae would break the consecration of a Church and desecrate it, so that would also be an option.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Oct 30, 2023 17:17:05 GMT -5
John Lewis , Yes, he is correct. Indulgences are very specific, and if they are not followed exactly, the indulgence is not given. In order to obtain these indulgences, one must go to a Church, and that means a canonical Church or an approved oratory. Traditionalist chapels are not canonical churches or oratories. They are private chapels. The eastern rite parishes and oratories are a good option. Also, I do not believe the use of the Novus Ordo Missae would break the consecration of a Church and desecrate it, so that would also be an option. I think this is something that is overlooked by many and something that we should be promoting to all the faithful.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 31, 2023 6:01:06 GMT -5
John Lewis , Yes, he is correct. Indulgences are very specific, and if they are not followed exactly, the indulgence is not given. In order to obtain these indulgences, one must go to a Church, and that means a canonical Church or an approved oratory. Traditionalist chapels are not canonical churches or oratories. They are private chapels. The eastern rite parishes and oratories are a good option. Also, I do not believe the use of the Novus Ordo Missae would break the consecration of a Church and desecrate it, so that would also be an option. I think this is something that is overlooked by many and something that we should be promoting to all the faithful. I agree completely! Fwiw, for those that do not understand this or refuse to accept this truth, may still get many plenary indulgences by the daily visits to the cemeteries. If anyone has ever read about indulgences, then you will be struck by the extreme generosity of the Church for these plenary indulgences. These are very easy as far as the task to be commented, and you can free deceased parents, family members, friends and anyone else permanently from Purgatory with very little effort. Regarding the visit to a Church, the Church gives you from 12 noon on All Saints Day and the whole day on All Souls Day, along with the Saturday after All Souls Day beginning at Noon until Sunday at Midnight to complete this! That's a lot of opportunities. You can also achieve this more than once, so it's not just one plenary indulgence, it could be a lot. As far as the cemetery visits, if you have a Catholic cemetery in your area, this is ridiculously easy. Just go there and do the required prayers. It's simple, and you free a soul every day. I of course am saying all of this presuming that all other conditions of the plenary indulgence are completed.
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Post by wenceslav on Oct 31, 2023 8:48:54 GMT -5
Hello Pacelli,
Thank you so much (and John Lewis) for your posts. I have been practicing this (ie trying to obtain a plenary indulgence for the Poor Souls) for many years. And I totally agree that our Traditional Catholic Chapels do not qualify as “Churches “ for the Toties Quoties Indulgence. I may be a bit daft (I know I am) but in order to obtain a plenary indulgence for a Soul by going to a cemetery every day during the Octave, would one have to go to Holy Communion/confession every day? I assume so, correct.
Also, I just want to harp on Fr. Belmont’s last paragraph (Thanks John Lewis!). He mentions that we can obtain a plenary indulgence for praying the Holy Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament or by saying “the Prayer before a Crucifix “ pending of course that you go to Holy Confession and Communion within the allotted time.. These are all available even in a Traditional Catholic Chapel ie applicable to the Holy Souls. . I urge everyone to take advantage of this great gift from God and His Church every Sunday and Holy Day etc when you attend Holy Mass. I checked the 1957 Raccolta many years ago and it is all there.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 1, 2023 9:47:41 GMT -5
wenceslav wrote: It's a very good question Wenceslav, and the answer is that so long as the confession and reception of Holy Communion are within the time frame prescribed by the Church, then, you do not have to repeat this part, the confession and Holy Communion, and just have to do the task required by the Church each day to keep obtaining the plenary indulgence. The requirements are: 1. For Confession: You must confess within 8 days prior to the day the indulgence is fulfilled, or the day the indulgence, or 7 days after the indulgence day. 2. If you are regular confessor, and confess twice a month, you do not have to confess again within the time frame to obtain the plenary indulgence. 3. For Communion: You can receive Holy Communion, the day prior to the indulgence day, or the day of the indulgence, or 7 days after that. So long as you fall within the time frame of these requirements, you can keep earning plenary indulgences every day, so long as other conditions are met. You don't need to keep confessing or receiving Holy Communion to obtain them, you just need to stay within the timeframe for the requirement. Once you've gone beyond that, and want to keep obtaining the plenary indulgences, you will have to confess or receive Holy Communion again to start the timeframe again. It's good to remember that you don't have to wait until you receive these sacraments to restart the clock, so long as you know you will go to Communion on Sunday, for example, you could do the task required on Saturday, and the Communion you receive on Sunday fulfills the requirements. It's also worth noting that Toties Quoties is unique as far as indulgences go because you can keep obtaining it over and over each time you visit the Church within the timeframe, so long as the other conditions are met. Also, as a word of caution, be careful about reading pre-Code conditions for indulgences, as these being laws of the Church, they change, and older books on this are outdated. I will post a source below that may help from Fr. Woywod's commentary on the Code: SOURCE
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Post by wenceslav on Nov 2, 2023 10:42:18 GMT -5
Again, I want to thank Pacelli and John Lewis for the above references! I would also like to cite the 1957 Raccolta and other documents that, without a doubt, show that one can gain a Plenary Indulgence(s) by reciting The Prayer before a Crucifix or the Rosary under the usual conditions of Holy Confession/Communion. And the above two indulgences do not require that one visit a canonically erected church or oratory. So our Catholic Chapels (SSPX, CMRI etc) will suffice and we can try to obtain these Plenary Indulgences (on behalf of the Poor Souls) throughout the year and not just November - which I strongly encourage. The link for the two above indulgences in the 1957 Raccolta (under the auspices of Pope Pius XII and the last one before the VII revolution) are here. Link: drive.google.com/file/d/1HukGRNTxV5DZ9UdrMZdsLzpxOOLRS1an/view?usp=drivesdkA link from a sample prayerbook from the 1950s is here. I can provide more links from prayerbooks if anyone likes. Link: drive.google.com/file/d/1EbbvhIl1PnTQM56EM9JafbmB4iEi2C-m/view?usp=drivesdkMoreover, a link from the Dominicana Journal (December 1927) by Br. Nicholas Walsh O.P. discusses the new Rosary indulgence (instituted by Pope Pius XI). And if one recites all three decades of the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament, one can gain 3 Plenary indulgences that day. Link: www.dominicanajournal.org/wp-content/files/old-journal-archive/vol12/no4/dominicanav12n4newrosaryindulgencesaintdominic.pdf
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Post by Didymus on Dec 1, 2023 6:39:31 GMT -5
Does visiting a canonically erected Church that has been abandoned and is now privately owned as a private mass center for some traditional group (fsspx, cmri etc) count as a canonical Church and to earn indulgences?
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Dec 1, 2023 20:40:25 GMT -5
Does visiting a canonically erected Church that has been abandoned and is now privately owned as a private mass center for some traditional group (fsspx, cmri etc) count as a canonical Church and to earn indulgences? It think it depends on whether it was deconsecrated prior to its current usage. Pacelli may have a more thorough answer for you.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 3, 2023 10:33:17 GMT -5
Does visiting a canonically erected Church that has been abandoned and is now privately owned as a private mass center for some traditional group (fsspx, cmri etc) count as a canonical Church and to earn indulgences? This is a very good question, and one that I was thinking about since you wrote it. This matter of a Church losing its consecration falls under execration, not desecration as is commonly thought. The Church cannot lose its consecration very easily and certain conditions must be met for that to happen as explained by the canonist Augustine (commentary on canons 1170 and 1187 linked HERE) 1. The Church must be totally destroyed. 2. The larger part of the walls have collapsed, or 3. The bishop has turned the building over to profane use. I think #3 is the most important one to look at. What if a bishop who is the ordinary in a diocese under the line of undeclared antipopes turns a Church over to profane use? This would appear be an act of jurisdiction, not orders, or at least it seems that way to me. Now, the next question is that if these Conciliar bishops are not in their offices, as seems likely, in the Latin Rite at least, then are these acts of turning over these Churches to profane use and thereby deconsecrating them, supplied by the Church? The basis of canon 209 is that is serves the common good. The Church would not supply for evil jurisdictional acts, such as if a bishop appointed a laywomen to be a new pastor of a Church, or started excommunicating every Catholic in the diocese, or some other evil act. With this in mind, is the act of turning over to profane uses buildings that were once canonical Churches, an act which is good, and therefore would attract jurisdiction? It seems so to me, as if these buildings are turned over to some profane use, as often happens, and they frequently become things such as worship buildings used by sects, condominiums, karate studios, dance studios, doctors offices, etc., it would be a mockery of the holy place consecrated to God. I think a better argument could be made that if there was no transition time between the use of the Church as it was meant to be used, and then Catholics secured it for the purpose of using the Catholics rites, then the act of the bishop of turning it over to a profane use would not be supplied, as it wasn't in reality turned over to a profane use. This doesn't seem to be the case though in practice. These churches are generally closed and put up for sale on the open market with the idea that they will be sold for any of the purposes I named above, or other secular or sectarian purposes. To conclude, it is certainly a disputed point, but it does seem to me that these acts of turning over a church to a profane use would probably attract jurisdiction and therefore, in my opinion, the status of these churches are that they are probably no longer consecrated, at least in most cases.
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Post by Didymus on Dec 4, 2023 22:02:07 GMT -5
And in this case, for example, would the rite of reconciliation by a traditional group be enough to remove the execration and would this act be supplied by the Church or would they have no canonical value?
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Dec 5, 2023 0:29:16 GMT -5
And in this case, for example, would the rite of reconciliation by a traditional group be enough to remove the execration and would this act be supplied by the Church or would they have no canonical value? My guess would be that this would be an act that requires ordinary jurisdiction, so I don't expect that their act would have any canonical value but Pacelli will have a sure answer.
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