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Post by Pacelli on Apr 27, 2023 10:28:35 GMT -5
I'm going through Sel de la Terre, back issues looking at anything I can find written by Fr. Pierre Marie on the subject of the episcopal consecration rite, and I found this from the 2015 issue, #92: Recensions : Les consécrations épiscopales selon le rite de Paul VI sont-elles valides ?
This was a review written by Fr. Pierre Marie and maybe it's what we are looking for, I'm not sure. If anyone has this issue, could you scan this review for us? It's on page 170: Here is a link to the issue: www.seldelaterre.fr/A-196688-n-92-printemps-2015.aspx
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Post by Didymus on Apr 30, 2023 19:38:04 GMT -5
This interests me , I have not read the work of Fr. Pierre Marie
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 1, 2023 18:54:29 GMT -5
I haven't got a copy, but am asking around and several groups are interested in finding it. I hope to engage a French priest who might have access to it.
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Post by Pacelli on May 2, 2023 14:09:15 GMT -5
I haven't got a copy, but am asking around and several groups are interested in finding it. I hope to engage a French priest who might have access to it. Thank you! Keep in mind though that I am not certain if this is the right issue. It’s just a guess.
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Post by Pacelli on May 2, 2023 14:15:46 GMT -5
This interests me , I have not read the work of Fr. Pierre Marie The work of Fr. Pierre Marie on this is mistaken. He was incorrect on two matters: 1. He asserted that the novel 1968 rite of Paul VI was essentially found in the eastern rites, specifically the Maronites and Coptic. He was incorrect. The Paul VI rite was not based on episcopal consecration rites, but the non-sacramental rite of the enthronement of a patriarch. 2. He asserted that it also follows the ancient episcopal consecration rite of Hippolytus. This is also incorrect. It is based on a reconstruction of what that rite was thought to be, not a certain approved Catholic rite.
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Post by Didymus on May 2, 2023 23:18:02 GMT -5
This interests me , I have not read the work of Fr. Pierre Marie The work of Fr. Pierre Marie on this is mistaken. He was incorrect on two matters: 1. He asserted that the novel 1968 rite of Paul VI was essentially found in the eastern rites, specifically the Maronites and Coptic. He was incorrect. The Paul VI rite was not based on episcopal consecration rites, but the non-sacramental rite of the enthronement of a patriarch. 2. He asserted that it also follows the ancient episcopal consecration rite of Hippolytus. This is also incorrect. It is based on a reconstruction of what that rite was thought to be, not a certain approved Catholic rite. I declare myself ignorant in this matter, it would be good to read a more complete objection to Fr. Pierre Marie. However, the rejection of the Novus Ordo is something almost instinctive, it is unbearably non-Catholic, I don't know how there could be a way to defend such a corruption of the Latin rite.
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Post by Pacelli on May 4, 2023 7:02:41 GMT -5
The work of Fr. Pierre Marie on this is mistaken. He was incorrect on two matters: 1. He asserted that the novel 1968 rite of Paul VI was essentially found in the eastern rites, specifically the Maronites and Coptic. He was incorrect. The Paul VI rite was not based on episcopal consecration rites, but the non-sacramental rite of the enthronement of a patriarch. 2. He asserted that it also follows the ancient episcopal consecration rite of Hippolytus. This is also incorrect. It is based on a reconstruction of what that rite was thought to be, not a certain approved Catholic rite. I declare myself ignorant in this matter, it would be good to read a more complete objection to Fr. Pierre Marie. However, the rejection of the Novus Ordo is something almost instinctive, it is unbearably non-Catholic, I don't know how there could be a way to defend such a corruption of the Latin rite. It is an area of theology that in ordinary times, almost every Catholic on earth would be ignorant of, and the only ones that would grasp all of this and have advanced education about this would be theologians. So, you are not alone. Most Catholics, including priests and bishops, just trust the Church, and use the rites that She gives to use, and that is it. There is not much thinking that has to happen, it is all based on trust. Fr. Pierre Marie's study on this looks very impressive, as he gives side by side charts in order to demonstrate that the Paul VI rite is in essence the same as two eastern rites and also the rite of Hippolytus. It is only when the the facts he presents are challenged, and one questions if this is indeed truly one of the two Eastern rites that he presents, or whether the rite of Hippolytus can be verified as authentically the same as one used in the early Church, that the entire thesis falls apart. To me, the first red flag for anyone looking into this should be to ask yourself why Paul VI would want to end the use of the Roman Pontifical in the first place. Let's say for sake of argument that he did truly want to switch the Roman rite for an eastern rite, then one should ask why? I'm not criticizing eastern rites, but they have always been a tiny sliver of the Church, and it has always been the Church of Rome that has been the front and center of the Church, with almost all Catholics on earth part of the Latin rite. It seems outrageous that a Pope would want to drop the rite of the Roman Church for one of two tiny eastern rites, or some ancient out of use rite. There is never any explanation, at least that I am aware of, on why this episcopal consecration rite of the Roman Church used for centuries, needed to go, but it was essentially tossed in the garbage. As one looks more deeply into the facts, it is certain that the 1968 Paul VI consecration rite of bishops is a novelty with no support from either an eastern rite or an ancient out of use rite. This is a fact even any honest defender of the rite would need to admit, that it is a stand alone novelty, not found in the Roman Church, any eastern rite, or even the Orthodox, and is not found in any ancient out of use rite.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 6, 2023 20:22:02 GMT -5
I haven't got a copy, but am asking around and several groups are interested in finding it. I hope to engage a French priest who might have access to it. Thank you! Keep in mind though that I am not certain if this is the right issue. It’s just a guess. There is a french-speaking intellectual who attends my chapel. She has agreed to try and get me a copy of the article if she can and perhaps translate it for us also. I hope that she can assist.
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Post by Pacelli on May 7, 2023 5:33:39 GMT -5
Thank you! Keep in mind though that I am not certain if this is the right issue. It’s just a guess. There is a french-speaking intellectual who attends my chapel. She has agreed to try and get me a copy of the article if she can and perhaps translate it for us also. I hope that she can assist. That would be great!
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 12, 2023 21:55:10 GMT -5
There is a french-speaking intellectual who attends my chapel. She has agreed to try and get me a copy of the article if she can and perhaps translate it for us also. I hope that she can assist. That would be great! Unfortunately she is having difficulty as well. If anyone has Fr Pierre Marie's contact details she can try and contact him directly but she hasn't been able to track them down thus far.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 15, 2023 3:24:21 GMT -5
I've found a way of contacting him that has worked for a friend in the past. Unfortunately the Dominicans of Avrille parted ways with the SSPX in 2015 because of their growing relationship with Rome. So I don't know that a retraction of his article will have much impact in the English speaking world.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 16, 2023 15:32:53 GMT -5
Pacelli , I have emailed you a copy of the article sent to me by Fr Pierre Marie as well as his contact details (separate email). I translated it using DeepL Translate at the advice of sdwright and unfortunately it isn't the retraction we were hoping for.
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Post by Didymus on May 16, 2023 20:39:58 GMT -5
Pacelli , I have emailed you a copy of the article sent to me by Fr Pierre Marie as well as his contact details (separate email). I translated it using DeepL Translate at the advice of sdwright and unfortunately it isn't the retraction we were hoping for. it would be nice to see that here
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 16, 2023 22:55:36 GMT -5
Pacelli , I have emailed you a copy of the article sent to me by Fr Pierre Marie as well as his contact details (separate email). I translated it using DeepL Translate at the advice of sdwright and unfortunately it isn't the retraction we were hoping for. it would be nice to see that here I'll let Pacelli post it. I don't have cloud storage.
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Post by Pacelli on May 17, 2023 8:59:15 GMT -5
Pacelli , I have emailed you a copy of the article sent to me by Fr Pierre Marie as well as his contact details (separate email). I translated it using DeepL Translate at the advice of sdwright and unfortunately it isn't the retraction we were hoping for. Great work John Lewis! Would you mind copy and pasting the translation from Deep L. Translate, that you did, as I don't have the time to retype it all right now in the program. It's unfortunate that this is not what Michael Wilson was referring to. It was a good lead, but as you say, it's not a retraction. This is the article in PDF, which is in French and untranslated linked: HERE
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