recusant
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 86
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Post by recusant on Jun 5, 2016 19:20:04 GMT -5
Was the real motivation of this post telling us that you take your children to see bellydancing and women in bikinis? This is what I was thinking! What kind of Catholic would take his family to such a place??? Did you ever hear of the moral principle of avoiding the proximate occasion of sin?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 5, 2016 20:21:07 GMT -5
Was the real motivation of this post telling us that you take your children to see bellydancing and women in bikinis? do you have a bone to pick with greg?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 5, 2016 20:22:16 GMT -5
Was the real motivation of this post telling us that you take your children to see bellydancing and women in bikinis? This is what I was thinking! What kind of Catholic would take his family to such a place??? Did you ever hear of the moral principle of avoiding the proximate occasion of sin? please let us not cast stones......
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Post by RitaMarita on Jun 5, 2016 20:49:29 GMT -5
Immorality is everywhere in the world now-a-days...
Egypt is in many ways less liberal than our own country. I have known people from there, and my parents visited there once... And just because you visit an area does not mean you can not avoid the bad areas in it. You just have to know what to look out for...
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Post by Damaged Goods on Jun 5, 2016 21:08:30 GMT -5
do you have a bone to pick with greg? His posts are often intentionally provocative and he needs to be closely monitored.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 5, 2016 21:21:59 GMT -5
do you have a bone to pick with greg? His posts are often intentionally provocative and he needs to be closely monitored. we got it...no minimodding needed...thank you
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Post by jen51 on Jun 5, 2016 21:40:14 GMT -5
That's an interesting thought about the message sent by women who cover themselves head to ankles. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but I think you're right. And I think that's not just the message sent, but probably the message intended by Islam, grounded on the Islamic view of women. It is very strange but a large number of them are dressed like women of ill-repute under their coverings. They also love designer items. I watched a documentary about it, apparently in the company of other women, and those they can show themselves to, it is like a bizarre "hotness" competition. Pardon the expression. I'm sure this is just another deviation in the practice of their false religion because I do know a few that really do believe in modesty. Keep in mind that false feminism is infecting Islam and so we are seeing them go through a huge transition. In another hundred years, I doubt they majority will even wear headscarves. Hopefully that will be due to a mass conversion and miracle, Our Lady of Fatima gives me hope for this, and not due to the general moral decay of the world. This post reminded me of a conversation we had with a nun today before mass. It really is a shame how few nuns wear habits any more. She was telling us of all of the different groups of nuns in the city that we go to Mass in and how few of them are traditional. She was telling us of how she got a ticket the other day for not wearing a seat belt. On our way home I was exclaiming to my husband, "How on earth could someone in good conscience give a ticket to an elderly nun!?!?!!!" He replied, "I'd give a nun a ticket if she wasn't wearing her habit." Lol. This nun is always in her habit. God bless this nun- she's probably the most saintly person I know.
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Jun 5, 2016 22:27:13 GMT -5
A nun that gives up all her physical beauty by covering herself from head to toe is like a man who decides to never drink alcohol, not because he thinks it's immoral to do so, but because it's a perfectly good thing to drink, which makes it a true sacrifice, just like the nun sacrificing all her physical beauty. Muslims are teetotalers in both respects. They don't cover themselves out of the notion of sacrificing something good, but out of the notion that that good thing is evil; like Manicheism and Albigensienism.
On the other hand, no man should be at a beach with bikini clad women, barring some necessity. If a man finds himself to be the exception to which this is not a grave occasion of sin, at the very least he should recognize that it is a grave occasion of sin for men in general, and treat it in this regard in public and around others.
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Greg
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2016 0:05:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately diving/swimming in the Red Sea requires (practically speaking) one to see bikini clad women. I don't think diving in Saudi Arabia is an option for a family holiday.
Besides that my children will see bikini clad women in the local park of any English market town during the summer months and, perhaps worst still, canoodling homosexuals during the summer months. This is now a frequent sight in the UK and most of Western Europe.
An occasion of sin is an occasion you can avoid. They can't avoid going to the park and everywhere else life requires one to go during the summer months. Going to the beach in Egypt is probably less of an occasion of sin that going to Hyde Park or Central Park during May to September. If one can't avoid it then what does one do? Stay inside like a recluse?
On the positive side, at least they saw modestly dressed Islamic women too in both Egypt and Istanbul. They are not all in full niqabs. Many of the Arabic tourists had full length Adidas neck to ankle swimming wear. Gives them something to think about and makes them realize that their culture is not a universal one. Other places do things differently; for better or worse.
Thinking about the comments on various Trad Catholic forums I don't see a large problem with voyeuristic men. Sure men are prone to lust as they've always been but Trad women aren't complaining that Trad men are all running after bikini models but rather that there seem to be rather a lot of homos in Traditional circles, as well as men who have decided that marriage is not for them at least this side of 40 or given up trying to chase after women. For at least some of the first group, swimming with bikini clad women would be less of an occasion of sin than drinking in the pub with tweed clad men discussing Tolkien.
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Greg
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2016 10:35:07 GMT -5
Immorality is everywhere in the world now-a-days... Egypt is in many ways less liberal than our own country. I have known people from there, and my parents visited there once... And just because you visit an area does not mean you can not avoid the bad areas in it. You just have to know what to look out for... Assuming you wanted to take your children to swim with tropical fish in the Red Sea, which was the main reason we went on this holiday, then how would you avoid seeing beach-goers in typical attire? You must access the beach to swim in the sea. I can't afford to charter a large yacht nor could all of my children swim in the deep ocean. The temperature during the day is 40-47 degrees C or 104 to 116F. You can't easily walk a mile or two to a deserted beach out of town to swim. You could take a taxi I suppose but that might be an occasion of death once you were outside the tourist areas of the towns. Behind you is the Sahara desert all the way to the Nile. The towns are all resort towns with large all-inclusive type hotel complexes. Huge hotels and beaches. That's all there is. There's no bus or infrastructure to get to other beaches. The countries surrounding the Red Sea are Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Sudan and Eritrea. Which of these countries welcome tourists and allow them to use the beaches with only modestly dressed swimmers around them? Of the above 6 countries only two are suitable for westerners to visit. Israel and Egypt. Now of course you could say, "then don't go", but on this basis there are 1001 things you would never do because they could also be "occasions of sin". You would never go to the cinema or watch sport (gymnastics or athletics or Sumo wrestling or diving or swimming or tennis) on TV or indeed live. You could never visit a park during the summer months in most cities in the Western hemisphere. Heck I've even been to school parents evenings where people have worn inappropriate clothing. And God forbid you go to a classical music concert in any city where young women are often wearing evening gowns that leave little to the imagination.
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jun 7, 2016 13:13:32 GMT -5
Muslim covering isn't about modesty. According to traditional Islamic theology, they actually believe that men have little to no self control when it comes to women, and that they need to remain covered or else the man will try to force himself on her.
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Post by heinrich on Jun 7, 2016 13:46:40 GMT -5
Immorality is everywhere in the world now-a-days... Egypt is in many ways less liberal than our own country. I have known people from there, and my parents visited there once... And just because you visit an area does not mean you can not avoid the bad areas in it. You just have to know what to look out for... Assuming you wanted to take your children to swim with tropical fish in the Red Sea, which was the main reason we went on this holiday, then how would you avoid seeing beach-goers in typical attire? You must access the beach to swim in the sea. I can't afford to charter a large yacht nor could all of my children swim in the deep ocean. The temperature during the day is 40-47 degrees C or 104 to 116F. You can't easily walk a mile or two to a deserted beach out of town to swim. You could take a taxi I suppose but that might be an occasion of death once you were outside the tourist areas of the towns. Behind you is the Sahara desert all the way to the Nile. The towns are all resort towns with large all-inclusive type hotel complexes. Huge hotels and beaches. That's all there is. There's no bus or infrastructure to get to other beaches. The countries surrounding the Red Sea are Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Sudan and Eritrea. Which of these countries welcome tourists and allow them to use the beaches with only modestly dressed swimmers around them? Of the above 6 countries only two are suitable for westerners to visit. Israel and Egypt. Now of course you could say, "then don't go", but on this basis there are 1001 things you would never do because they could also be "occasions of sin". You would never go to the cinema or watch sport (gymnastics or athletics or Sumo wrestling or diving or swimming or tennis) on TV or indeed live. You could never visit a park during the summer months in most cities in the Western hemisphere. Heck I've even been to school parents evenings where people have worn inappropriate clothing. And God forbid you go to a classical music concert in any city where young women are often wearing evening gowns that leave little to the imagination. True enough. We finally have weather in the 70's in Colorado Springs. Which effects are typical: women dressing undignified. I told a friend after Mass that going to Costco is painful. I saw a lady whom I knew from prior employment, who is pleasant enough to speak with(and I could have used German, which I love to speak), but nonetheless, no way was I going to stand in her presence. She might as well have been wearing a bikini.
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Greg
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2016 15:34:20 GMT -5
Muslim covering isn't about modesty. According to traditional Islamic theology, they actually believe that men have little to no self control when it comes to women, and that they need to remain covered or else the man will try to force himself on her. If they have that little self control then why not force themselves on a clothed woman? Doesn't take much to take the clothes off. It's my contention that people end up behaving according to their beliefs and not the other way around. If you believe that you have little self-control then you have no motivation to learn or develop self-control. Actually, it's not that difficult to sit on a beach and rationalize that just because a woman is wearing a bikini it does not mean that she wants to be pestered by you. She nearly always just wants to get a tan. Admittedly, this is easier to rationalize at 48 years old than 28 and easier at 28 than 18. As the years pass people mature and question their beliefs or at least see the exceptions and parts where they no longer hold. In my 20s I spent a lot of time in Europe (France, Majorca, Italy, Costa Del Sol, and Costa Brava where women walk around topless not just on the beach but even to the shops, bars and restaurants on the other side of the promenade. While for the first few days of your holiday it is somewhat distracting by the second week it's all a bit passé. The novelty of seeing a pair of breasts every 20 seconds quickly wears off and you realise that most humans look pretty much like most other humans. Occasionally you will see a women with a stunning figure, great legs, curves in all the right places and a beautiful face and you'll look and think "what a stunner". But frankly, I'd look at a very attractive woman whatever she was wearing, because attractive women are a pleasure to look at. I subscribe to the idea of appropriate clothing but "modest" clothing I've seen described as everything from a wife beater on the beach to wearing a dark suit and tie to mass on a 90F Sunday. Part of the problem is nearly always the viewer and their idea of what is modest or immodest and then obsessing about something that crosses the line.
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Post by thejovialinquisitor on Jun 7, 2016 15:36:37 GMT -5
Yes. If you look at the situation in Europe, you'll see that's exactly what happens with Muslims.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2016 16:12:52 GMT -5
Muslim covering isn't about modesty. According to traditional Islamic theology, they actually believe that men have little to no self control when it comes to women, and that they need to remain covered or else the man will try to force himself on her. If they have that little self control then why not force themselves on a clothed woman? Doesn't take much to take the clothes off. It's my contention that people end up behaving according to their beliefs and not the other way around. If you believe that you have little self-control then you have no motivation to learn or develop self-control. Actually, it's not that difficult to sit on a beach and rationalize that just because a woman is wearing a bikini it does not mean that she wants to be pestered by you. She nearly always just wants to get a tan. Admittedly, this is easier to rationalize at 48 years old than 28 and easier at 28 than 18. As the years pass people mature and question their beliefs or at least see the exceptions and parts where they no longer hold. In my 20s I spent a lot of time in Europe (France, Majorca, Italy, Costa Del Sol, and Costa Brava where women walk around topless not just on the beach but even to the shops, bars and restaurants on the other side of the promenade. While for the first few days of your holiday it is somewhat distracting by the second week it's all a bit passé. The novelty of seeing a pair of breasts every 20 seconds quickly wears off and you realise that most humans look pretty much like most other humans. Occasionally you will see a women with a stunning figure, great legs, curves in all the right places and a beautiful face and you'll look and think "what a stunner". But frankly, I'd look at a very attractive woman whatever she was wearing, because attractive women are a pleasure to look at. I subscribe to the idea of appropriate clothing but "modest" clothing I've seen described as everything from a wife beater on the beach to wearing a dark suit and tie to mass on a 90F Sunday. Part of the problem is nearly always the viewer and their idea of what is modest or immodest and then obsessing about something that crosses the line. Greg I agree with you to a point...but there is an objective standard of proper attire. In our day and age with liberalism and feminism and the general sexualization of every thing just assaulting every sensory input it is possible to become desensitized to what it truly means to be human. You may forget that certain fashions and trends are very bad for you and society. Much the same way an addict forgets that heroin is actually killing them. That goes for ALL of us unless we be cloistered nuns or hermits. As for the Muslim "men"...how very convenient dont you think (as jovial points out) that it is women's responsibility to keep from arousing the men? The very essence of justification to rape without remorse or inhibition...after all if the woman dresses like that she obviously should expect to get assaulted. That is the very defense made by these muzzie animals.
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