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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 22:58:48 GMT -5
I will also add that what has happened in the Roman Rite starting with Paul VI would have been viewed as an absurdity by most Catholics of other ages. Who would have ever believed that the man regarded as Pope could teach heresy, deceiving the flock, and significantly tinker with the rites of the sacraments enough that validity is questionable?
Was it fair also to the faithful Roman rite Catholics in 1970 who just trusted the Church? Were they receiving bread and not Our Lord? God permitted this tragedy, and we know that He is never unjust.
The eastern Catholics were spared Paul's sacramental tinkering, and for a long time, eastern Catholics who get all of this, didn't have to even worry about this part of the crisis, but now we know that Paul VI's holy order rites are also affecting some eastern rites in some places. It's not widespread, but it is present, and that forces any who unserstand these matters to make a choice.
For myself, I have made that choice already. I avoid all priests ordained through the Paul VI rite, or consecrated by bishops who were consecrated through that rite. I await the judgment of the Church on this matter, and until such judgment, I am taking the cautious approach.
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 19, 2017 6:15:29 GMT -5
Then why do we need a Mass at all...it seems staying home IS the only logical action? There are so many reason to go to mass and receive Communion. Receiving Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation. Without it, we will be weak, and most likely will fall. I never said that the graces given for obeying God without a sacrament are the same as the graces God gives through the sacrament. Only God knows what graces He gives, and He gave us the mass amd Holy Communion. It's foolish to refuse this gift God gave to us without a very good reason. If you stay home, you lose those graces, that much is clear. Whether the amount of grace God would give to a soul, who although intended to go to a mass was deprived the true mass unknowingly by some defect of the sacrament, would be more or less depends on the disposition of that individual's soul and intention. The amount of grace God can give us at any second is relative to our disposition, not a lack of availability.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 19, 2017 7:02:43 GMT -5
There are so many reason to go to mass and receive Communion. Receiving Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation. Without it, we will be weak, and most likely will fall. I never said that the graces given for obeying God without a sacrament are the same as the graces God gives through the sacrament. Only God knows what graces He gives, and He gave us the mass amd Holy Communion. It's foolish to refuse this gift God gave to us without a very good reason. If you stay home, you lose those graces, that much is clear. Whether the amount of grace God would give to a soul, who although intended to go to a mass was deprived the true mass unknowingly by some defect of the sacrament, would be more or less depends on the disposition of that individual's soul and intention. The amount of grace God can give us at any second is relative to our disposition, not a lack of availability. Agreed, but this is a mystery for us, that was my point. Our duty is to to receive the sacraments God gives us, as God has revealed that to us, not rely on non-sacramental Catholic life with the hopes that it will suffice in place of the sacraments.
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Post by Andrew on Oct 19, 2017 13:26:14 GMT -5
Voxx's point about the lay people having to investigate their pastors or become a theologian is not the ordinary way for sure. I remember reading in The Dialogue where certain priests in mortal sin were feigning consecration and the faithful were worshipping and receiving bread. Does that mean the faithful would have to approach the priest and ask him if it was actually done? Or have scrupples galore about whether they have to continually worry? At some point complete trust in God and His true church will obliterate concerns beyond one's control.
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 19, 2017 15:18:47 GMT -5
Whether the amount of grace God would give to a soul, who although intended to go to a mass was deprived the true mass unknowingly by some defect of the sacrament, would be more or less depends on the disposition of that individual's soul and intention. The amount of grace God can give us at any second is relative to our disposition, not a lack of availability. Agreed, but this is a mystery for us, that was my point. Our duty is to to receive the sacraments God gives us, as God has revealed that to us, not rely on non-sacramental Catholic life with the hopes that it will suffice in place of the sacraments. I agree. Prudence demands it. My comment was meant to address Vox's comments which seem to infer God could be unjust in people not receiving the sacramental grace.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 19, 2017 16:41:21 GMT -5
Agreed, but this is a mystery for us, that was my point. Our duty is to to receive the sacraments God gives us, as God has revealed that to us, not rely on non-sacramental Catholic life with the hopes that it will suffice in place of the sacraments. I agree. Prudence demands it. My comment was meant to address Vox's comments which seem to infer God could be unjust in people not receiving the sacramental grace. Im talking about the RESULTS of not recieving sacramental Grace. I dont belive it happens that they DONT get the same sacramental grace as those wuth fully proper priests.
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 19, 2017 19:14:50 GMT -5
Pacelli I wasnt talking about the novusordo sect....nor the obvious example of a woman unknowingly marrying a married man....My example was in the byzantine...even if they used the proper rubrics formulas abd prayers...if the bishop was appointed by JP2?...technically EVEN the priest assumes and considers himself a priest. But because of a technicality the soul could be lost? That is unjust. What are direct benefits of the True mass on the individual who participates in faith? Isnt there a list of things? Specific benefits only accsessable through the DL/Mass? These are lost without any sign of loss? Absurd. Vox, if I am understanding you right, your claim is that despite a mass or sacrament being invalid, a lay person must receive the graces specific to the intended rite or mass he assumed were valid. I would argue that this cannot be. The specific act (cause) was not enacted, therefore it could not have resulted in the (efect), i.e. the specific indulgences being received. The gun was defective therefore it could not have fired the bullet. But there are other ways to fire a bullet. And so Vox, I am stating that just because those specific indulgences were not received, it is not to claim sactifying grace was not received nor that it was not in a greater amount than the original intended intentions. Therefore, to claim that God would not be just having not give those specific indulgences, is to ignore that God is not limited to those specific means and in His justice He must certainly would impart the grace merited.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 19, 2017 20:42:39 GMT -5
Lets get something clear I am not putting God in the dock...I m putting the logical conclusions of certain opinions there...or at least how they seem to me. If God bestows the graces anyway (which is my position btw)then it is not right to be giving these ominous warnings about who bestowed the Priesthood....and following the above opinion...why cant God grant validity on the eastern priest...inducted with all the proper eastern rubrics and prayers...even tho the eastern bishop was apointed by the sect?...Why not? "And the disciple were all amazed at his teaching and asked who then can be saved? A Jesus answered with God all things are possible" paraphrase of Gospel.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 19, 2017 21:00:00 GMT -5
Voxx's point about the lay people having to investigate their pastors or become a theologian is not the ordinary way for sure. I remember reading in The Dialogue where certain priests in mortal sin were feigning consecration and the faithful were worshipping and receiving bread. Does that mean the faithful would have to approach the priest and ask him if it was actually done? Or have scrupples galore about whether they have to continually worry? At some point complete trust in God and His true church will obliterate concerns beyond one's control. I agree with what you wrote. Our situation is different though, as we are not just dealing with the Church, which we must as a default trust. In our situation there are two organizations at play, the Church and a sect claiming to be the Church. What I am saying is that I do not trust the sect's holy orders.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 19, 2017 21:04:38 GMT -5
Lets get something clear I am not putting God in the dock...I m putting the logical conclusions of certain opinions there...or at least how they seem to me. If God bestows the graces anyway (which is my position btw)then it is not right to be giving these ominous warnings about who bestowed the Priesthood....and following the above opinion...why cant God grant validity on the eastern priest...inducted with all the proper eastern rubrics and prayers...even tho the eastern bishop was apointed by the sect?...Why not? "And the disciple were all amazed at his teaching and asked who then can be saved? A Jesus answered with God all things are possible" paraphrase of Gospel. As I said, this has nothing to do with appointments. If the eastern rites had no Paul VI rite involvement, we wouldn't be talking about this. That is where the problem is, the Latin rite holy orders coming from Paul VI have found their way into the eastern rites in some places.
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Post by Andrew on Oct 20, 2017 5:11:23 GMT -5
Episcopal consecration, holy orders, confirmation,and holy communion by desire? I guess the grace would be akin to a spiritual communion? Pacelli?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 20, 2017 9:17:39 GMT -5
Episcopal consecration, holy orders, confirmation,and holy communion by desire? I guess the grace would be akin to a spiritual communion? Pacelli? That is interesting.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 20, 2017 15:37:24 GMT -5
Episcopal consecration, holy orders, confirmation,and holy communion by desire? I guess the grace would be akin to a spiritual communion? Pacelli? Grace is not the real issue here, it's whether the Paul VI rites are doubtful as to validity, and if they are, whether they must be avoided. The eastern rites have been largely spared from this part of the crisis, as their lines of succession and rites have remained intact. Unfortunately, there are some cases of the Paul VI rites breaking through the eastern wall, and that is the problem. It wouldn't take much for the eastern Catholics to remedy this problem, it's not widespread. With just a small amount of conditional ordinations and episcopal consecrations, all would be fixed. The trouble is that in order for that to happen, they first need to see the problem.
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