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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 7:39:09 GMT -5
The elephant in the room...how is this at all the laitys responsability to be checking out the pedigree of priests who otherwise teach no errors during sermons..do not adulterate or make theological changes to the DL and(or otherwise abuse the DL)...Im not talking about altar girls which are an obvious sign for avoidence or red flag...or a publically revealed (as opposed to kept secret) communion in sacris with the ducks...these make for obvious avoidence....but if everything is "above board" and proper to the faith. How can the laitys benefit* be deminished if it happens to be (unknown to anyone) such and such pastor was ordained by bishops from vat2. (*benefit defined as Graces and salvation...forgivness of confessed sins.) I am constantly belaboring THIS point...VERY FEW lay Catholics are this sophisticated in their Faith. And following Chesterton's "democracy of the dead"...since when did Christ require them to be? Our Church is the Church of billions of living and dead Catholics who were poor...ignorant...uneducated...nieve...young..very old..etc.. This is my litmus...Consider the lay byzcath janitor with just a GED...loves God and his ByzCath Church...makes every Sunday except for illness...every feast day...does his fasts and penences..but Im suppost to belive that its "ooops"....nooo...sorry unbeknownst to you janitor man your priest was ordained by a vat 2 appointed bishop...oh well better luck next time...see you in hell...or a few extra millinia in purgetory". DOES ANYONE HEAR ME? This is the god of the pharassees...not the God of Justice Mercy and compassion. And please dont pass off what Im saying as just emotionalism. Day in and day out lay trads are straining theological tea leaves and trying through pedantry to be "safe"...and "orthodox"..."properly traditional". DOES ANYONE HEAR ME? The greatest tragedy as I see it is many have lost the simple childlike love and Trust in our Adorable Savior and his immesurable Gift of the DL/Mass. Everything I wrote did not get into culpability. I am not saying anyone is sinning by not getting all of this. Lets face it though, Paul VI did significantly change the ordination rite of priest and consecration rite of bishops. Although the Church has yet to judge the matter, is it not the prudent course to avoid these radically changed new rites that came from him until such judgment comes, especially in light of the fact that if these rites did invalidate the holy orders, then one is worshiping a piece of bread, and a cup of wine? Let's say for the sake of argument that the Paul VI rite holy orders are definitely invalid. If a Catholic goes to a mass said by such a priest, but is acting in good Faith, and does not realize (or is not sure about) the defect in the orders, then of course, no sin would be committed. But, it would still not change the objective fact that the Catholic is not at a mass, just a simulated mass, and is not receiving the Holy Eucharist, just bread and wine.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 18, 2017 9:01:03 GMT -5
And so you assert the Grace is lost to the ignorant layperson? Absurd.
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Post by Andrew on Oct 18, 2017 10:17:38 GMT -5
Boy, do I hate the show Mash but what a perfect example of dealing with a war zone, and in any situation you can be sure there will be a jew around to take your money.(OOOuch) Because we are in a war zone situation maybe epikea is more applicable than we think and non jurisdictional bishops have more of a say than we think even though they were not officially sent. Suss it out themselves? Not if they are in serious danger. But that is why the East is in such a good situaion there is just a couple of tweeks necessary for everything to line up. I still feel it will be how Our Lady's Im Heart will triumph.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 10:23:30 GMT -5
And so you assert the Grace is lost to the ignorant layperson? Absurd. Either it is a sacrament or it is not. I assert that it might not be due to defect. God will reward those who obey Him, and do His Will. If a man goes to the Novus Ordo believing this is the Catholic mass, he will not be punished, and his act is meritorious for his intent to obey God. The Anglicans believed they had valid orders both before and after Pope Leo declared them null. They might have thought they had a priesthood, but they did not. It's possible to invalidate sacraments due to defect, the Church has taught this, it's not something I'm making up.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 10:36:38 GMT -5
Boy, do I hate the show Mash but what a perfect example of dealing with a war zone, and in any situation you can be sure there will be a jew around to take your money.(OOOuch) Because we are in a war zone situation maybe epikea is more applicable than we think and non jurisdictional bishops have more of a say than we think even though they were not officially sent. Suss it out themselves? Not if they are in serious danger. But that is why the East is in such a good situaion there is just a couple of tweeks necessary for everything to line up. I still feel it will be how Our Lady's Im Heart will triumph. It is really easy for this crisis to end, yet it is not easy to accomplish at the same time. It the remaining eastern Catholic bishops, along with the few elderly "retired" Roman bishops held an imperfect council, they could with the cooperation of the remaining Roman clergy elect a pope and end this. It is that simple, yet complex to accomplish. To use a dumb analogy: Dorothy thought she was trapped in Oz, yet all along, she had the power to leave with a simple act, she just didn't realize it. Catholics have always had the power to end this by petitioning the lawful electors, it's just the entire focus for the last four decades or so has been in building up Traditionalism, not ending the crisis.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 18, 2017 14:37:58 GMT -5
And so you assert the Grace is lost to the ignorant layperson? Absurd. Either it is a sacrament or it is not. I assert that it might not be due to defect. God will reward those who obey Him, and do His Will. If a man goes to the Novus Ordo believing this is the Catholic mass, he will not be punished, and his act is meritorious for his intent to obey God. The Anglicans believed they had valid orders both before and after Pope Leo declared them null. They might have thought they had a priesthood, but they did not. It's possible to invalidate sacraments due to defect, the Church has taught this, it's not something I'm making up. Never said you were making anything up...but my mind cannot comprehend the level of injustice involved in depriveing an ignorant layperson of his benefits because of something beyond his control and beyond his knowledge.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 14:52:44 GMT -5
Either it is a sacrament or it is not. I assert that it might not be due to defect. God will reward those who obey Him, and do His Will. If a man goes to the Novus Ordo believing this is the Catholic mass, he will not be punished, and his act is meritorious for his intent to obey God. The Anglicans believed they had valid orders both before and after Pope Leo declared them null. They might have thought they had a priesthood, but they did not. It's possible to invalidate sacraments due to defect, the Church has taught this, it's not something I'm making up. Never said you were making anything up...but my mind cannot comprehend the level of injustice involved in depriveing an ignorant layperson of his benefits because of something beyond his control and beyond his knowledge. Every act done with the intention of serving and obeying God will be rewarded, even if the sacrament is invalid. If an innocent woman unknowingly marries a married man, because he deceived her and hid his past, her role in the marriage would still be rewarded if she was a good and faithful wife. If she were to discover the truth about the man, she must act upon it, and not remain in the adulterous situation. But, until that fact is realized by her, she is not only not guilty of the crime, by being a good wife, she was pleasing to God. All of her good intent on being a good wife, however, will not make an invalid marriage, valid. The same principle applies here. The Church has not yet authoritatvely dealt with the Novus Ordo sect and its sacramental lines. Catholics who innocently believe it is the mass, or go to priests who they have no cause to doubt their validity, act as the wife in the situation above. Once a person learns the truth, however, he must act upon the new information. There is no injustice here except that inflicted upon Catholics by Paul VI and his successors who have robbed us us, and have harmed hundreds of millions, if not billions of souls through their actions.
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 18, 2017 18:27:43 GMT -5
Never said you were making anything up...but my mind cannot comprehend the level of injustice involved in depriveing an ignorant layperson of his benefits because of something beyond his control and beyond his knowledge. Every act done with the intention of serving and obeying God will be rewarded, even if the sacrament is invalid. If an innocent woman unknowingly marries a married man, because he deceived her and hid his past, her role in the marriage would still be rewarded if she was a good and faithful wife. If she were to discover the truth about the man, she must act upon it, and not remain in the adulterous situation. But, until that fact is realized by her, she is not only not guilty of the crime, by being a good wife, she was pleasing to God. All of her good intent on being a good wife, however, will not make an invalid marriage, valid. The same principle applies here. The Church has not yet authoritatvely dealt with the Novus Ordo sect and its sacramental lines. Catholics who innocently believe it is the mass, or go to priests who they have no cause to doubt their validity, act as the wife in the situation above. Once a person learns the truth, however, he must act upon the new information. There is no injustice here except that inflicted upon Catholics by Paul VI and his successors who have robbed us us, and have harmed hundreds of millions, if not billions of souls through their actions. I think it would be good to distinguish that although such a one may not gain any sacramental grace, it is not to say he would not merit by his pious intentions additional sactifying grace. And the purpose of this life is the attainment and increase of Sactifying grace therefore there would be no injustice on the side of God.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 19:40:38 GMT -5
Every act done with the intention of serving and obeying God will be rewarded, even if the sacrament is invalid. If an innocent woman unknowingly marries a married man, because he deceived her and hid his past, her role in the marriage would still be rewarded if she was a good and faithful wife. If she were to discover the truth about the man, she must act upon it, and not remain in the adulterous situation. But, until that fact is realized by her, she is not only not guilty of the crime, by being a good wife, she was pleasing to God. All of her good intent on being a good wife, however, will not make an invalid marriage, valid. The same principle applies here. The Church has not yet authoritatvely dealt with the Novus Ordo sect and its sacramental lines. Catholics who innocently believe it is the mass, or go to priests who they have no cause to doubt their validity, act as the wife in the situation above. Once a person learns the truth, however, he must act upon the new information. There is no injustice here except that inflicted upon Catholics by Paul VI and his successors who have robbed us us, and have harmed hundreds of millions, if not billions of souls through their actions. I think it would be good to distinguish that although such a one may not gain any sacramental grace, it is not to say he would not merit by his pious intentions additional sactifying grace. And the purpose of this life is the attainment and increase of Sactifying grace therefore there would be no injustice on the side of God. Thank you for adding that. This was the idea I was trying to get across.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 18, 2017 21:38:08 GMT -5
And confession...so his sins are not forgiven?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 18, 2017 21:47:03 GMT -5
Pacelli I wasnt talking about the novusordo sect....nor the obvious example of a woman unknowingly marrying a married man....My example was in the byzantine...even if they used the proper rubrics formulas abd prayers...if the bishop was appointed by JP2?...technically EVEN the priest assumes and considers himself a priest. But because of a technicality the soul could be lost? That is unjust. What are direct benefits of the True mass on the individual who participates in faith? Isnt there a list of things? Specific benefits only accsessable through the DL/Mass? These are lost without any sign of loss? Absurd.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 18, 2017 21:48:44 GMT -5
I think it would be good to distinguish that although such a one may not gain any sacramental grace, it is not to say he would not merit by his pious intentions additional sactifying grace. And the purpose of this life is the attainment and increase of Sactifying grace therefore there would be no injustice on the side of God. Thank you for adding that. This was the idea I was trying to get across. Then why do we need a Mass at all...it seems staying home IS the only logical action?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 18, 2017 21:55:04 GMT -5
"He who devoutly hears Holy Mass will receive a great vigor to enable him to resist mortal sin, and there shall be pardoned to him all venial sins which he may have committed up to that hour." - St. Augustine, Sup. Can. Quia passus, de Consecr. dist. 2.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 22:25:46 GMT -5
Pacelli I wasnt talking about the novusordo sect....nor the obvious example of a woman unknowingly marrying a married man....My example was in the byzantine...even if they used the proper rubrics formulas abd prayers...if the bishop was appointed by JP2?...technically EVEN the priest assumes and considers himself a priest. But because of a technicality the soul could be lost? That is unjust. What are direct benefits of the True mass on the individual who participates in faith? Isnt there a list of things? Specific benefits only accsessable through the DL/Mass? These are lost without any sign of loss? Absurd. If a man is not a priest, he has no orders, therefore his mass is not valid. Holy orders is neceesary to validly say the mass. Its not about appointments, it's about orders. If the Paul VI rite is defective, and by that invalid, then the priests ordained through that rite or by bishops consecrated through that rite, are invalidly ordained, therefore. not priests. I realize there are a lot of "ifs" in all of this, and that is because we are waiting for the Church to authoritatively settle the matter.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 18, 2017 22:32:26 GMT -5
Thank you for adding that. This was the idea I was trying to get across. Then why do we need a Mass at all...it seems staying home IS the only logical action? There are so many reason to go to mass and receive Communion. Receiving Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation. Without it, we will be weak, and most likely will fall. I never said that the graces given for obeying God without a sacrament are the same as the graces God gives through the sacrament. Only God knows what graces He gives, and He gave us the mass amd Holy Communion. It's foolish to refuse this gift God gave to us without a very good reason. If you stay home, you lose those graces, that much is clear.
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