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Post by Clotilde on May 6, 2016 14:52:55 GMT -5
I am putting this here because if we had to assemble some common beliefs among traditionalists, whether true or false, this might go on the list.
I have seen some assert that country living is the ideal that all Catholics must strive towards. They might state that in order to save one's soul, one must relocate, be self-sufficient, and that living in the city will corrupt absolutely. They make these ideas into dogma and will harass people who have a different lot in life, suggesting changes which have no consideration of a individual or their family.
Now, I am an advocate for doing things yourself, learning, keeping arts alive, but I cannot take this position. My position is that while it is fine to have a lifestyle change, that we are put in a time and place where we can best save our souls and we should rely on God's Providence rather than lament over a lifestyle that we cannot have.
Personally, in my own life, I have had suggestions both ways. Some people have suggested to me that we move to another part of the country in order that I put my children in a traditionalist school and so we can live in what they deem a more moral place. I've also had people suggest that we relocate back to the city, where we would be unable to afford a home or rent, so we can be closer to mass.
The point is that in both cases no one gave me the benefit of the doubt that, between my husband and I, we had considered every possible factor and had made the best decisions possible and we're trying our best to fulfill our duties before God. Personally, I just assume this about other people but I guess some people do not.
How about yourselves, do you hold strong ideas about country vs. city? Do you advise other people strongly, or do you encourage your fellow Catholics to thank God for what He has provided and to be content with their lot in life? Is this argument just a distraction? Other thoughts?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 6, 2016 15:14:28 GMT -5
If there are any Trad Caths who happen to be urban dwellers then THAT is the only good thing in a big city. In other words I agree that good Catholics could live in big cities...but that I think the environment has a tendency to drive them away. But at moral level....it is absolutely NOT intrinsically immoral to live in a big city. (I keep saying big city because I assume thats what you mean)
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Post by mundacormeum on May 6, 2016 15:51:20 GMT -5
I wouldn't say I hold "strong ideas", per say, but I do have a strong personal preference for country living. I tend to feel like the slower pace and simpler ways make it easier on family life and raising children, but that doesn't mean I think it's impossible, immoral, or wrong to raise children well in the city, too. It's also quite possible to raise your family poorly in both the city and the country. It's not so much where you live, but how you live that's important. I have seen the debate come up between country living vs. city living in various Catholic circles, and I find it kind of strange. And, I do catch some flak here and there for "living out in the boonies". But, really, who cares where one lives, if he is striving to live an authentically Catholic life wherever he is. It doesn't matter to me if the people in the pews next to me live in the city or country, as I see it as a morally neutral issue, provided they are striving for holiness and encouraging those around them to do the same. I personally think there are pros and cons to each place, and you really just have to go with what fits best for your family. Honestly, I don't want everyone flocking to the country, anyway......they would just end up creating another city, and invading my space too much I think what you said, Clotilde, about giving people the benefit of the doubt with regards to fulfilling their duty before God was a very good point. Yes, we are all called to be holy, Catholic families, but we are not all called to live that out in cookie cutter fashion. There's quite a wide range of boundaries that Holy Mother Church allows for families to carry out that call to holiness.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 17:21:58 GMT -5
I think you can live an authentic Catholic life anywhere you live, too.
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Vanna
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Post by Vanna on May 6, 2016 17:41:18 GMT -5
I think you can live an authentic Catholic life anywhere you live, too. Agree. I was born and raised in the country so I am partial to that lifestyle. I'm not a fan of people in general, present company excluded, so city life is not for me. Admittedly, that is not a good Catholic mindset but I can't seem to help it. People just annoy me. I don't want to hear them, smell them, see them, etc when I'm at my house. I'm a natural born hermit.
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Post by jen51 on May 6, 2016 19:39:16 GMT -5
The Church is universal. It is for everyone, everywhere.
We like the country, even though we're currently stuck in town. Both of us are good at country living, and it's always how we've imagined raising a family. We are the "do it yourself" type of people, and enjoy and pursue traditional arts, trades, cooking, etc. I think it's a great way to raise children. Having said all of that, we have strongly considered moving to the city so that our children could be raised amongst a group of other trads. A thriving community is so edifying. It's a hard decision to make.
I get annoyed that this has to be an issue among trads. It should not be at all. It really is, though.
On a side note, something that I find irritating are the non-country trads referring to country trads as Amish wanna be's! Lol. This couldn't be further from the truth. It's not true for us, anyway. We don't dress like the Amish, we think their beliefs are weird, and we don't particularly enjoy being around them. We have a pretty large Amish community around here.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 6, 2016 19:48:41 GMT -5
Ive actually never heard that this was an "issue" at all?? A great many Saints were very metropolitan people.
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Post by Clotilde on May 6, 2016 21:12:35 GMT -5
Ive actually never heard that this was an "issue" at all?? A great many Saints were very metropolitan people. There have been a few essays and articles about it. In in my own experience, I have known people who could not be happy where they were, or they could not be happy unless everyone was like them. I actually like like a middle ground, maybe slightly closer to country. I like city/town sewer and not having a septic tank. I like not having to drive through traffic. I like not waiting in line at the post office. I like going to museums, cultural festivals, and fine dining (though the last is rare). I don't mind driving to mass, even if it is less often, so that we can afford our home. I like living in a safe place. There are just so many trade-offs. One thing that is harder about living away from the city is that there are fewer things for homeschoolers to do that are worth the time and effort. For some people though, they aren't interested in homeschooling outside of their four walls, but for us we like to use everything around us. I've noticed that people where I live now charge more for less when it comes to classes and that is annoying. I think it is funny that there should be such an argument because the Church doesn't urge people to give up their NYC flat for a cottage in North Dakota. The Church just goes where her sons live and ministers to them. Most of our glorious basilicas and cathedrals are in cities, I can't think of any in the country. There are some nice shrines and holy places in the country though. As for people who live in the city, many Catholics who live in urban areas have historically still practiced some kinds of agriculture or self-sufficiency. Italians and Portugese still grow grapes and make wine, while living in tiny apartments, for example. I've also known many Scandanvian people who knit and spin despite living in the city. It all works out in the end.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 14:14:54 GMT -5
I think it just plain weird that one person would care where another person lived. You just do the best wherever you find yourself and if you're not happy there then go find someplace else.
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Post by Clotilde on May 7, 2016 15:54:51 GMT -5
I think it just plain weird that one person would care where another person lived. You just do the best wherever you find yourself and if you're not happy there then go find someplace else. Which is why I don't link to those discussions or articles because I'm not going to perpetuate those ideas. I'd also politely suggest a reading on contentment if I felt the other party could benefit.
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Post by Pacelli on May 7, 2016 15:59:47 GMT -5
It seems to me that the first thing that needs to be considered when looking for a place to live for a family is the husband's employment. It is the man's responsibility to provide for his family, and he cannot leave his family destitute if that is in any way avoidable.
There are of course other factors, but this should be the starting point.
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Post by Graham on May 8, 2016 10:17:58 GMT -5
Modern cities provoke a high baseline of anxiety because of their scale, confusion, and ugliness. There was an experiment done to demonstrate it. Older cities, older European downtowns, and older large towns grew up on a human rather than a machine scale, and had economic factors like workshops and storefronts embedded in a communal foundation instead of the reverse. In my experience such cities actually cause feelings of relaxation much like the countryside.
I've lived in the country for two years now. I like the quiet and I like having more space. This morning I saw a heron fishing in the little river nearby. There's a chipmunk living under my back porch and he pops up to visit when I sit out there. I have a firepit and at night I can see the stars. But none of it is all that enjoyable when you live by yourself, and so far away from friends that they can't come spend an afternoon or evening, and that's a big part of why I'll be moving when my lease expires. Also gas prices.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 8, 2016 10:30:35 GMT -5
Modern cities provoke a high baseline of anxiety because of their scale, confusion, and ugliness. There was an experiment done to demonstrate it. Older cities, older European downtowns, and older large towns grew up on a human rather than a machine scale, and had economic factors like workshops and storefronts embedded in a communal foundation instead of the reverse. In my experience such cities actually cause feelings of relaxation much like the countryside. I've lived in the country for two years now. I like the quiet and I like having more space. This morning I saw a heron fishing in the little river nearby. There's a chipmunk living under my back porch and he pops up to visit when I sit out there. I have a firepit and at night I can see the stars. But none of it is all that enjoyable when you live by yourself, and so far away from friends that they can't come spend an afternoon or evening, and that's a big part of why I'll be moving when my lease expires. Also gas prices. Couldnt agree more since I live in the very same type of community...HOWEVER..it is not intrinsically wrong for Catholics to live in a big city.
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Post by Clotilde on May 8, 2016 10:43:43 GMT -5
Modern cities provoke a high baseline of anxiety because of their scale, confusion, and ugliness. There was an experiment done to demonstrate it. Older cities, older European downtowns, and older large towns grew up on a human rather than a machine scale, and had economic factors like workshops and storefronts embedded in a communal foundation instead of the reverse. In my experience such cities actually cause feelings of relaxation much like the countryside. I've lived in the country for two years now. I like the quiet and I like having more space. This morning I saw a heron fishing in the little river nearby. There's a chipmunk living under my back porch and he pops up to visit when I sit out there. I have a firepit and at night I can see the stars. But none of it is all that enjoyable when you live by yourself, and so far away from friends that they can't come spend an afternoon or evening, and that's a big part of why I'll be moving when my lease expires. Also gas prices. I agree with the part about visitors. Since we have moved though, I have been fortunate to have more visitors in one year than we had in the city in the entire 12 years we lived there. It is very kind because I know that people really take a lot of trouble to visit us, since we are so far out of the way.
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Post by heinrich on May 12, 2016 18:37:59 GMT -5
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