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Post by micah1199 on Jul 27, 2017 8:30:59 GMT -5
I hope the baptism formula was valid. They have some incorrect versions in Protestant and novus ordo sects that do not confer baptism. If it was correct, little Charlie will be praying for his parents marriage and conversion soon in heaven. He is one blessed child to see the courts of Heaven soon.
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Post by kim on Jul 27, 2017 9:40:08 GMT -5
This is evil not because of the witholding of useless treatment...but because of the hospital destroying and usurping the rights if the Parents to withdraw the Child and try something else. What if they wanted to take him to Lourdes? The hospital stole their child.. and as I read it the delay and controversy doomed the child to zero medical hope. And Kim I appreciate the professional angle...but that being said...your description of the ill child you know is lacking. Your patient has a soul...and no one but God knows what its state is. Your patient for all we know might be a great Saint in Gods eyes...hidden like a pearl in a damaged field. Im sure its hard to be a nurse...hardest job in medicine...especially treating kids. I hope for you to not become too jaded...look past the infirmary...See Christ. Not saying you dont do that already...but praying for you to have even more peace.Thank God for good nurses. Of course my patient has a soul and because of that I secretly baptized him as the parents' religion only baptizes those who make a public profession of faith. The only travesty in Charlie's case is the denial of the parents' rights. Perhaps with the dramatic influx of immigrants the British healthcare system doesn't have the money to surgically trach every hopeless patient and send them home with a portable ventilator, suction machine, feed pump, formula, cough assist machine, nebulizer machine and backup machines for all those I listed plus some nursing care to follow up with all of that. In the USA that's what we generally do with children like this. Hence--I have a job taking care of such children.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 27, 2017 11:00:24 GMT -5
Kim...did you miss the part where they raised millions of dollars on their own. No I do not sympathize with the communistic hospital and its materialist presumptions...socialist materialist healthcare leads to euthanasia slow or fast. Do you tell the parents you baptised their child? Or ask your Pastor?Secret baptisms could be theologically problematic.
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Post by micah1199 on Jul 27, 2017 12:40:41 GMT -5
The child is retarded and will never reach reason and will probably die young. I think that she did the right thing, but I would correct the opinion if I am wrong according to the Church.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 27, 2017 15:28:15 GMT -5
The child is retarded and will never reach reason and will probably die young. I think that she did the right thing, but I would correct the opinion if I am wrong according to the Church. And if the Parents repent and convert and wish to have their child Baptised? I never said she did any thing "wrong".
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Post by chestertonian on Jul 27, 2017 17:08:28 GMT -5
It is withdrawing extraordinary medical treatment (mechanical ventilation) not murder. The real "death sentence" is Charlie's mitochondrial DNA depletion which is what actually caused the encephalopathy (brain damage) and respiratory failure. Would be interested in who the dr is who says he can offer experimental treatment and I'd be interested to know what the treatment is. It's upsetting that the state isn't allowing the parents to make the decision but it isn't the same thing as murder and precise language is important. The treatment offered a wee bit of hope for tiny improvements but should have been offered much earlier. It did NOT offer a cure. It's too late for it now. I take care of a kid w/ mitochondrial disorder. There are varying degrees of it. My kid is 10 and is very weak but can walk with a great deal of assistance. He is mentally retarded and non-verbal and knows 3 signs only--hungry, more and stop. He is able to take sips of water and will only eat small amounts of crunchy junk food like goldfish. He very seldom smiles and makes no eye contact with people and doesn't give any indication that he understands anything that is said to him. He is tube fed and currently breathes on his own. He started life seeming completely normal but has slowly deteriorated and will continue to do so. His mom says that when he reaches the point where he needs to be trached and placed on a vent, she will probably not choose to do so. The family are devoutly evangelical Protestant. Charles Darwin is believed to have had a very very mild version of mitochondrial disorder. Clearly Charlie Gard has a very aggressive and devastating form of the disease. According to an article I read yesterday---they only just now got him baptized and the couple are not married. That's a similar setup to what I have at home, I'm vent dependent with mitochondrial disease so I've been on a lot of online groups for people in similar situations, from what I've seen It is certainly possible to go home with the whole nine yards (trach/vent/suction). A lot of factors go into whether or not it's a good idea to trach. Especially with mitochondrial disorders, anesthesia can be a concern. A good friend of mine has the same exact mitochondrial disorder I have and she was told that she could get a trach, but she may not survive the procedure because of the risk of anesthesia. So she's on hospice. her mom wasn't in a good place to care for her at home so she would have ended up in a nursing home. So it would have been a really rough last few months/years for her. whereas my wife was determined to care for me at home and we had a medicare waiver fr the rest. But it's hard. my wife is having some health issues(mental health) right now and we've been relying on a skilled nursing facility a lot. You have to think about how far the disease has advanced, what can the patient still do? What support do they have? are they conscious, alert and oriented? Losing a baby is incredibly hard and I can't blame Charlie gard's family for wanting more time with him and doing whatever it takes. I would bave done the same exact thing probably, but there is never enough time, never a good time to go. But God's time nonetheless. Most of the people I know who are vent dependent are able to communicate in some way, even if it's an AAC with eye tracking technology. I think that's a different scenario than having widespread brain damage and major cognitive decline. I'm not sue what this experimental treatment is, but if it can reverse brain damage that would be quite a medical marvel, and I'd love to know about it. Once you make the decision you have to live with it and at what point could it ever go from withdrawing medical care to murder? If someone said, "That Chestertonian he's so irritating, I just want to kill him " and then turns my ventilator off, that sounds pretty murder-ish. But I'm no moral theologian. as for parental rights, I think parents have the right to do what is best for their child but they never have the right to do what is worst for the child... It very well might be that giving this boy a trach, transporting him across the atlantic, and then performing an experimental procedure might have given him nothing but pain and stress. but again i'm no moral theologian
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Post by micah1199 on Jul 27, 2017 17:16:45 GMT -5
The child is retarded and will never reach reason and will probably die young. I think that she did the right thing, but I would correct the opinion if I am wrong according to the Church. And if the Parents repent and convert and wish to have their child Baptised? I never said she did any thing "wrong". It is an interesting question. I am not sure that a second mistaken baptism would be sinful for them? She should ask her priest. The child will go to heaven now. I was only thinking of that. Whereas if the parents who had the belief of adult baptism had their way, the child would be condemned to limbo.
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Post by kim on Jul 27, 2017 17:51:28 GMT -5
Kim...did you miss the part where they raised millions of dollars on their own. No I do not sympathize with the communistic hospital and its materialist presumptions...socialist materialist healthcare leads to euthanasia slow or fast. Do you tell the parents you baptised their child? Or ask your Pastor?Secret baptisms could be theologically problematic. Of course I knew about the money they raised. That's why my only ethical issue with is is the parents' rights. They have the right to put their baby through medical hell in the the remote hope of slight improvements in his condition. No I don't tell the parents and I've baptized a lot of hopeless terminal severely retarded children. Is it so bad that they should go to heaven instead of limbo? And yes I asked my traditional priest and he was fine with it. It's just a few words and head rinse to most people--the parents included.
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Post by kim on Jul 27, 2017 18:05:09 GMT -5
I also take of a child with another muscular disease which allows her very very little movement. It's so rare that I don't want to say the name of the disease for fear of a hippa violation. She is on a vent and tube fed like like Chestertonian. She loves watching cartoons and having books read to her. tries to hum along with songs I sing and has an infectious smile when her daddy kisses her.[ Didn't have to baptize her because her parents took care of that in the hospital.] Every situation is different.
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turin
New Member
Posts: 45
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Post by turin on Jul 27, 2017 18:14:34 GMT -5
My grandmother was fired from her job as a nurse in the early 1960s for baptizing the dying baby of a Protestant couple. The Priest/chaplain wouldn't do it because he didn't want there to be a scandal. She asked the mother and she consented, but the father (not in the room at the time) was an Orangeman and totally opposed. Toronto was very much an anti Catholic city back then.
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Post by kim on Jul 27, 2017 18:37:32 GMT -5
My grandmother was fired from her job as a nurse in the early 1960s for baptizing the dying baby of a Protestant couple. The Priest/chaplain wouldn't do it because he didn't want there to be a scandal. She asked the mother and she consented, but the father (not in the room at the time) was an Orangeman and totally opposed. Toronto was very much an anti Catholic city back then. Guess your grandma wasn't as sneaky as I am.🙂 But hey I'm on night shift. Unfortunately many parents who carry the mitochondrial genes are opting for this now (yet another thread may emerge from this.): www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4005382/
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Post by kim on Jul 27, 2017 19:04:49 GMT -5
"That Chestertonian he's so irritating, I just want to kill him " and then turns my ventilator off, that sounds pretty murder-ish. But I'm no moral theologian. "
Thanks for the laugh, Chestertonian!! I hope your wife is doing better.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 27, 2017 20:03:11 GMT -5
Who defines what is "worse"...If my child was dying...as Trad Cath I would take them to Lourdes or such...but the communistic world state wouldnt allow it and threaten charges of abuse.
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Post by chestertonian on Jul 27, 2017 20:55:06 GMT -5
Who defines what is "worse"...If my child was dying...as Trad Cath I would take them to Lourdes or such...but the communistic world state wouldnt allow it and threaten charges of abuse. I'm not sure how a person on a vent could use the Lourdes baths. I have heard that the water is freezing which can disrupt heart rhythm in patients with autonomic dysfunction ) which happens a lot with mitochondrial disease) It's a wonderful idea in tgeory Which
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Post by kim on Jul 28, 2017 1:39:33 GMT -5
Who defines what is "worse"...If my child was dying...as Trad Cath I would take them to Lourdes or such...but the communistic world state wouldnt allow it and threaten charges of abuse. I've heard it's not even the spring water anymore. It's water pumped in via pipes operated by Muslim immigrant workers--or so I've read.
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