|
Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 20:22:11 GMT -5
Not at all. I am just not throwing out that people will be damned for their position and giving advice to the best of their ability. You both could be very wrong in the end and could end up giving others bad advice. We all have to be humble in this crisis. The difference with me, though, is that I don't tell Catholics they cannot go to particular masses. I may give them reasons why I would avoid a particular group, or priest, but I will not go further than that.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 20:25:55 GMT -5
Pacelli, I was wondering about your reasoning for saying that people should not go to a Mass where the priest is a heretic. As I understand it (but I might be wrong) this would not prevent the Mass from being valid. Isn't that how the principle ex opere operato works? I am not actually in this situation, just wanting to understand better. You are correct Jayne, regarding undeclared heretics, but if you go to an undeclared heretic there are conditions that must be observed, one most importantly that there is no risk of scandal. If the priest is not a (undeclared) heretic, it makes it much easier in deciding whether to go. Regarding declared heretics or sectarians, it is always forbidden to go to their masses, even valid masses.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 20:32:25 GMT -5
I believe the above teaching of the Church, that is why it seems to lead to bad places for Catholics without access to the sacraments. My conclusion could be wrong. Do you disagree with Morrisroe, cited above? Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation, and to not receive it, allows one to be in a weakened state against sin. Those without the mass, holy communion, confession, extreme unction were not in a good place for a Catholic to be. The fact that they were in such as situation not of their choosing and making the best of it, does not make it an ideal situation. Some people live in the third world with very little food and barely survive, does that mean that we who have access to plentiful food should freely imitate them and start living on a bowl of rice a day?
|
|
|
Post by micah1199 on Jun 26, 2017 20:32:36 GMT -5
There is a comparison. After the end of the French terror, there would be areas of France bereft of priests and masses for a long time. Their are areas of the earth that have true Catholics that are and will be bereft of true priests and masses for many years. Will those Catholics bereft of the graces of true masses be damned practically due to the teaching of above?
|
|
|
Post by micah1199 on Jun 26, 2017 20:36:08 GMT -5
I believe him that is why I am asking these questions.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jun 26, 2017 20:54:28 GMT -5
There is a comparison. After the end of the French terror, there would be areas of France bereft of priests and masses for a long time. Their are areas of the earth that have true Catholics that are and will be bereft of true priests and masses for many years. Will those Catholics bereft of the graces of true masses be damned practically due to the teaching of above? No, it doesn't mean with certainty that they will lose their souls, only that living one Faith will be much harder, and it will be much easier to fall into sin. Many far flung parts of the world lacked regular priests, people did their best. What I would see as folly, however, is to unnecessarily deny yourself the mass and Holy Communion when you do have access to it. I have even known of home-aloners so dug in that they wouldn't even confess to a valid and Catholic priest when they were dying. This is how far some take their views.
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Jun 26, 2017 21:37:32 GMT -5
I almost wish that I could bring myself to move to a large mass center, but their are no guarantees that any of them will survive the test of time. I spent the better of ten years trying to do this. Each chapel fell apart or the situation changed. It can work for some people but do not feel any pressure. I think for me there was something of a lesson in this, which was to be content with what God provides. I know it is, in some ways, a hard life. When you surrender yourself to God's Will, you can be happy anywhere. He will put you in a situation where you can save your soul if you co-operate and keep the Faith.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 26, 2017 21:49:36 GMT -5
Except it is much worse because there are fewer priests per Catholic. Are you haveing to watch as your children's tongue is removed in front of you...are you being hung on a cross upside down with small cuts in your scalp to bleed you out. Will you and your entire family be burned alive in your Church? Have you been arrested for being a Catholic. Get some perspective man.
|
|
|
Post by micah1199 on Jun 26, 2017 22:27:40 GMT -5
I almost wish that I could bring myself to move to a large mass center, but their are no guarantees that any of them will survive the test of time. I spent the better of ten years trying to do this. Each chapel fell apart or the situation changed. It can work for some people but do not feel any pressure. I think for me there was something of a lesson in this, which was to be content with what God provides. I know it is, in some ways, a hard life. When you surrender yourself to God's Will, you can be happy anywhere. He will put you in a situation where you can save your soul if you co-operate and keep the Faith. I will stay where I am because of work and family. I am blessed to be in a situation where I can head to VA at least once a month. Your story is comforting Clotilde. I have read of other mass situations that have fallen apart for people.
|
|
|
Post by Jayne on Jun 27, 2017 11:49:52 GMT -5
Pacelli, I was wondering about your reasoning for saying that people should not go to a Mass where the priest is a heretic. As I understand it (but I might be wrong) this would not prevent the Mass from being valid. Isn't that how the principle ex opere operato works? I am not actually in this situation, just wanting to understand better. You are correct Jayne, regarding undeclared heretics, but if you go to an undeclared heretic there are conditions that must be observed, one most importantly that there is no risk of scandal. If the priest is not a (undeclared) heretic, it makes it much easier in deciding whether to go. Regarding declared heretics or sectarians, it is always forbidden to go to their masses, even valid masses. I want to make sure that I understand this properly: Undeclared heretic means that the person claims to be Catholic even though what he says is heresy. Declared heretic means the person belongs to a heretical sect or has personally been declared a heretic by a Church authority. Is that right?
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jun 27, 2017 12:03:59 GMT -5
You are correct Jayne, regarding undeclared heretics, but if you go to an undeclared heretic there are conditions that must be observed, one most importantly that there is no risk of scandal. If the priest is not a (undeclared) heretic, it makes it much easier in deciding whether to go. Regarding declared heretics or sectarians, it is always forbidden to go to their masses, even valid masses. I want to make sure that I understand this properly: Undeclared heretic means that the person claims to be Catholic even though what he says is heresy. Declared heretic means the person belongs to a heretical sect or has personally been declared a heretic by a Church authority. Is that right? Yes, an undeclared heretic is one that has not joined a heretical sect, and has not yet been judged by the Church. When one joins a heretical sect, pertinacity is presumed, unless of course the person was not aware that he is in a sect.
|
|
|
Post by Mysterium Fidei on Jun 27, 2017 15:01:58 GMT -5
What about someone leading a person to an SSPX mass that leads to them eventually embracing the new Church or their children doing the same? That's a logical fallacy. Plenty, and I mean plenty of sedevacantist kids going to the Golden Non-Una Cum Masses, homeschooled and those in traditionalist schools fall away from the faith entirely. In fact, very few of them even remain practicing Catholics in any sense. Does that mean that NUC masses lead to atheism? Hell is being unleashed upon children and families and it isn't discriminating. Every single faction of traditional Catholicism is struggling to keep their kids practicing the Faith, without exception. What specific evidence do you have for this? Can you cite any statistics of the very few sedevacantist kids that remain practicing Catholics?
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Jun 27, 2017 15:57:20 GMT -5
That's a logical fallacy. Plenty, and I mean plenty of sedevacantist kids going to the Golden Non-Una Cum Masses, homeschooled and those in traditionalist schools fall away from the faith entirely. In fact, very few of them even remain practicing Catholics in any sense. Does that mean that NUC masses lead to atheism? Hell is being unleashed upon children and families and it isn't discriminating. Every single faction of traditional Catholicism is struggling to keep their kids practicing the Faith, without exception. What specific evidence do you have for this? Can you cite any statistics of the very few sedevacantist kids that remain practicing Catholics? I have talked to adult graduating class members of several traditionalist schools. They informed me separately. Mothers of grown children have told me the same. Through past endeavors, I was able to make a wide connection amongst sedevacantist families. Secondly, I've been to mass centers all across country there is a largely missing demographic second generation chapel members. A quick mental count involves 14 different mass centers across the country, some which are now defunct. There are two factors that I've noticed that help. One is a good father and the other is homeschooling. Homes where the father leads prayer seem to have less instances. Homeschooled children tend to keep the faith better than those in other educational settings. Still there are sadly exceptions there, too. I do not have a scientific set of numbers for you. Maybe you could make the necessary contacts and conduct a study and report back to us? That would be so interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Mysterium Fidei on Jun 27, 2017 16:13:55 GMT -5
What specific evidence do you have for this? Can you cite any statistics of the very few sedevacantist kids that remain practicing Catholics? I have talked to adult graduating class members of several traditionalist schools. They informed me separately. Mothers of grown children have told me the same. Through past endeavors, I was able to make a wide connection amongst sedevacantist families. Secondly, I've been to mass centers all across country there is a largely missing demographic second generation chapel members. A quick mental count involves 14 different mass centers across the country, some which are now defunct. There are two factors that I've noticed that help. One is a good father and the other is homeschooling. Homes where the father leads prayer seem to have less instances. Homeschooled children tend to keep the faith better than those in other educational settings. Still there are sadly exceptions there, too. I do not have a scientific set of numbers for you. Maybe you could make the necessary contacts and conduct a study and report back to us? That would be so interesting. OK, so it's pretty much anecdotal or based upon your personal observations. I thought maybe there was some sort of survey or study that had been done. Thanks for your answer.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 27, 2017 17:26:41 GMT -5
This is a discussion forum not a court of law.
|
|