|
Post by Pacelli on Dec 5, 2016 22:47:50 GMT -5
I have been posting resources dealing with communicatio in sacris (the communication in the sacred) in the resource forum. I have much more sources coming, but I wanted to open this up to any questions or comments here, as discussion is not permitted in the resource section.
The thinking of the Vatican II papal claimants and their theologians is that the prohibition against communicatio in sacris, as dealt with in canon 1258, previous teaching of the Holy Office and countless theologians was based on ecclesiastical law, not divine and natural law, therefore making it changeable, if a Pope decided to change it.
Their position is a grave error, and it is the basis of the entire interfaith and ecumenical movement. I am hoping that as more sources are posted, a picture will form in those that want to follow along, that this new idea is a novelty and a grave error.
I may also add that this is a good place to ask any questions about how the doctrine on communicatio in sacris pertains to Catholics with each other in this crisis.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 6, 2016 0:44:10 GMT -5
At Thanksgiving...my sister in law hosted the dinner at her home. She is protestant and she quieted everyone and said...lets pray....and of course its..."Oh Father we just come before you today..etc..freeflowing words to God as they are wont to do....I had my head down In silence....was I violating the rule?
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Dec 6, 2016 0:54:49 GMT -5
At Thanksgiving...my sister in law hosted the dinner at her home. She is protestant and she quieted everyone and said...lets pray....and of course its..."Oh Father we just come before you today..etc..freeflowing words to God as they are wont to do....I had my head down In silence....was I violating the rule? No, because you did not pray.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 6, 2016 6:01:21 GMT -5
Well I did pray...silently a Pater and Ave
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 6, 2016 6:02:43 GMT -5
I was seen by all the other family members there...and when She was done I said Amen.
|
|
|
Post by EricH on Dec 6, 2016 8:35:20 GMT -5
At Thanksgiving...my sister in law hosted the dinner at her home. She is protestant and she quieted everyone and said...lets pray....and of course its..."Oh Father we just come before you today..etc..freeflowing words to God as they are wont to do....I had my head down In silence....was I violating the rule? My family is Protestant and prays before meals, so I'm often in the situation you describe. When I became Catholic I thought it was forbidden to pray with them at all, ever, so as a way of showing my non-participation I take a drink from my glass while they pray. At Thanksgiving and Christmas, we eat in the dining room and the prayer is said standing and holding hands, so I walk into another room while they pray. Not long ago I learned that this is not strictly necessary. From Rev. Ignatius Szal, The Communication of Catholics with Schismatics: So now I could explain to them that the Church doesn't forbid me to pray with them, and that I still think they need conversion to the true faith, and then I could join in their prayers before meals. But I've kept up my old practice, which is the routine that everyone expects. I've also considered myself forbidden to sing hymns with my family, or to play the piano while they sing, which I would enjoy very much. Perhaps I will explain that I'm actually allowed to do this, in time for some Chrismas carols together. As for your situation, Voxx, you would only be violating the rule if there was danger of your being drawn away from the Catholic faith (not likely!) or if the others understood your participation as indicating some approval of their Protestantism.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Dec 7, 2016 16:50:50 GMT -5
I was seen by all the other family members there...and when She was done I said Amen. Well, that changes things from no active participation, which I commented on to active participation which Eric addressed. I agree with Eric, that this was a private act, and therefore not a forbidden act of communicatio in sacris. In any situation where you are in a private group that has Protestants that are praying, such as at work or around the holidays, in my opinion, the best approach is just to give them a respectful silence, no need to make them angry at us, by disturbing their prayers. I say this in the form of advice, in my opinion, I think there Are dangers to any prayer in common with sectarians, even those of good will, but the theologians do explain however that such private prayer, i.e. grace at meals, is not forbidden.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Dec 7, 2016 17:10:36 GMT -5
Someone has asked me my point in getting into this discussion in communicatio in sacris: how is it relevant?
I can see three areas, there might be more:
1. "Traditional" Catholics, of all variations, appear to be ignorant on how this applies to internal disputes among Catholics, including how to deal with the question of worship with those who profess to be Catholic while holding heretical or erroneous ideas prior to being judged by the Church.
2. Catholics who don't know how to correctly deal with those who are visibly outside the Church, such as "Orthodox," or "Protestants," in matters of worship from private prayer to the sacraments.
3. Catholics, who think that the Church's teaching on communicatio in sacris is an ecclesiastical law, therefore changeable by the Pope, and is not a Divine law or a natural law to which a Pope cannot change. This area would most particularly deal with those of good will who have been influenced by Vatican II and the post-Conciliar "Popes," who want to find out the truth on this matter.
It is my view that some go along with "ecumenical" and "interfaith" services based on the false premise that the "Pope has changed the law, not only permitting these activities, but encouraging them as good, therefore it is good that we do this to follow the will of the Pope." I am hoping that getting these resourses that I have put up, and more to come, will help anyone in this situation realize that such activities are forbidden by God, (Divine law), and also the order of nature, (natural law), therefore even a true Pope could not allow, never mind encourage such activity.
Since these "Popes," have approved and encouraged these acts for the universal Church, it is a proof, one among many, that they could not have been legitimate popes.
|
|
Deleted
Past Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 22:30:31 GMT -5
What do you do in a situation where a Protestant friend or relative wants to attend Mass with you?
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Dec 8, 2016 23:18:51 GMT -5
What do you do in a situation where a Protestant friend or relative wants to attend Mass with you? Set them up for success. Give them the amount of information that is appropriate, which could be different depending on the circumstances. The most important thing is really just making sure they know not to receive Communion, that is a delicate subject with some, so approach it with caution and in a kind manner. Someone genuinely interested would probably not mind a prayer book (missal) but they also might like the comfort of observing first and asking questions later.
|
|
|
Post by Jayne on Dec 9, 2016 16:55:44 GMT -5
I have been dealing with a situation concerning this issue and found the resources helpful. Thank you.
I am a convert from Judaism and recently have become responsible for caring for my aged parents. My mother wishes to attend synagogue services and, because of her impaired health (including memory issues), I don't like her travelling alone. If I do not take her to the synagogue she will try to go on her own and I fear for her health and safety.
From reading the resources, it sounds like giving her a ride is remote material cooperation and is something that would be permitted. Am I understanding correctly?
|
|
|
Post by michaelwilson on Dec 9, 2016 17:44:19 GMT -5
I believe that it is.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 9, 2016 19:44:01 GMT -5
Welcome back Jayne how are you?
|
|
|
Post by Jayne on Dec 9, 2016 21:16:59 GMT -5
Welcome back Jayne how are you? Thanks. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed by everything involved in caring for my parents. I would appreciate prayers. Especially for their conversion.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Dec 9, 2016 22:21:54 GMT -5
I understand...of course...prayers.
|
|