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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 4, 2022 15:13:08 GMT -5
Thanks Pacelli and @erikh for this scintillating theological discussion. Truly top notch stuff; I hope you resume it one day. I think one conclusion we can draw from this is that the mystery of the crisis in the Church is deeper than most Catholics realize, touching as it does her very essence on multiple points. It underscores the importance of remaining patient and mild with those who disagree with our conclusion of sedevacante, which, although true, nevertheless appears balanced upon a tenuous theological tight rope. Satisfactorily threading the needle through all the relevant distinctions contained within the field of ecclesiology is no easy task. I think the problem with American catholics is that they are used A right left paradigm They're used to everything being politicized Sean hannity type catholics So when you get into the weeds and deep discussions like this one their eyes glaze over
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Post by Pacelli on Aug 8, 2022 8:50:05 GMT -5
Thanks Pacelli and @erikh for this scintillating theological discussion. Truly top notch stuff; I hope you resume it one day. I think one conclusion we can draw from this is that the mystery of the crisis in the Church is deeper than most Catholics realize, touching as it does her very essence on multiple points. It underscores the importance of remaining patient and mild with those who disagree with our conclusion of sedevacante, which, although true, nevertheless appears balanced upon a tenuous theological tight rope. Satisfactorily threading the needle through all the relevant distinctions contained within the field of ecclesiology is no easy task. Your analogy to a tight rope is very good. That's exactly what we are all walking on right now. It takes many Catholics years of pondering, reading and studying just to reach the conclusion that there has been no pope since Pius XII or maybe John XXIII. Many who come to this conclusion, unfortunately, allow their minds to fill in gaps as to other matters on the crisis to "make it all fit," but that is where many mistakes are made, in my opinion. The best remedy to avoid such errors is to follow the classic rules of the spiritual writers, most especially to distrust one's own private judgment and take things slowly, applying great rigor to all ideas in regards to every aspect of this crisis and not blindly believe any speaker or writer who takes it upon himself to teach Catholics during this time. Since we have no authority, the best way to test things in our times, is for Catholics to test their ideas in humility by presenting such ideas for open criticism to see if something is being missed, or if sources are being applied incorrectly, or in some cases, if open deceit is being used by certain pseudo-theologians to trick Catholics into adopting an error (or errors) against either Faith or morals. I'm hoping this forum, even though it is slow moving, is a place for such discussions to get to the truth, at least as best we can, in our current dilemma.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2022 15:48:15 GMT -5
Is the teaching on the Episcopal College as a teaching body always existing an Apostolic Doctrine? I ask because it has dire consequences for those who deny it if it is.
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Post by Pacelli on Sept 25, 2022 16:43:30 GMT -5
I wish I could read the whole discussion on Twitter, but I have closed my Twitter account and will not reopen it. Can you state to me here what the issue is?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2022 18:32:47 GMT -5
What are the consequences for those who reject the dogma of the Church that the Episcopal College must always exist by claiming that all of the Episcopal Sees are universally vacant at present?
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Post by Pacelli on Sept 26, 2022 13:45:11 GMT -5
What are the consequences for those who reject the dogma of the Church that the Episcopal College must always exist by claiming that all of the Episcopal Sees are universally vacant at present? Such an assertion is clearly heretical. The hierarchy, which is composed of the Pope with the ruling bishops of the Church are essential to the Church itself. To assert that the hierarchy can be significantly diminished is Catholic, but to assert that it can be completely absent in the world with no living member remaining is certainly heretical. The consequence for one that knows that this is heresy and still publicly holds to it is loss of membership in the Church.
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Post by samuelsede on Sept 26, 2022 16:41:02 GMT -5
What are the consequences for those who reject the dogma of the Church that the Episcopal College must always exist by claiming that all of the Episcopal Sees are universally vacant at present? Such as assertion is clearly heretical. The hierarchy, which is composed of the Pope with the ruling bishops of the Church are essential to the Church itself. To assert that the hierarchy can be significantly diminished is Catholic, but to assert that it can be completely absent in the world with no living member remaining is certainly heretical. The consequence for one that knows that this is heresy and still publicly holds to it is loss of membership in the Church. E.g. from Van Nort: archive.org/details/vannoortvol2christschurch/page/n31/mode/2up
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2022 15:14:33 GMT -5
I think Samuel's evidence pretty much ends this. Recognise that the word "Always" means "at all times, at any time, in any event" and it is clear that "totalism" and the thesis of Cassiacum are founded on a premise that is heretical.
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