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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 23, 2016 10:59:25 GMT -5
cc...what your missing is...faith and confidence are gifts from God...simply stateing facts to fellow catholics....no matter how true and seemingly obvious to you and the good Father does not at all necessarily mean your listeners "see" what you want them to see. Many factors...sin...intelligence...age...past traumas...health...all can leave scales on the spiritual eyes. When God removes the scales...then they see. Its not our concern beyond telling the truth.
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Post by Pacelli on Aug 23, 2016 11:06:26 GMT -5
Fr Fliess said: Fr. Fliess is here asserting that a Catholic cannot hold as an opinion that Francis is not the pope, even if one is not certain.
He is wrong, a Catholic can and must form his conscience to the best of his ability, and if a Catholic forms such an opinion based on his understanding of the facts, he is well within his rights.
It is not "utterly false" to doubt oneself and one's own judgment of the facts of the case or one's own understanding of the principles involved. It is not "utterly false" in distrusting oneself to want to wait for the judgment of authority to give the conscience certainty and dispel doubts.
A Catholic is not obliged to take a position on an unsettled matter, if he remains unsure, until it is imposed upon him by authority.
Even if an airtight case is presented to him demonstrating the position is true, he is still not obliged to believe it, if he remains uncertain on the matter, for whatever reason he may have. Even if his reasons are weak, it is his conscience, and he remains in good conscience so long as he is not being false to himself. Only the authority can bind, not non-authorities, who can only persuade.
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 11:11:24 GMT -5
cc...what your missing is...faith and confidence are gifts from God...simply stateing facts to fellow catholics....no matter how true and seemingly obvious to you and the good Father does not at all necessarily mean your listeners "see" what you want them to see. Many factors...sin...intelligence...age...past traumas...health...all can leave scales on the spiritual eyes. When God removes the scales...then they see. Its not our concern beyond telling the truth. You have explained that well, and I have never missed that. I have not spoken against what you are now saying. The only thing that needs to be added is that beyond telling the truth, we also have the duty to condemn error, just as Liberalism is a Sin says we are commanded to do.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 23, 2016 11:21:31 GMT -5
cc...what your missing is...faith and confidence are gifts from God...simply stateing facts to fellow catholics....no matter how true and seemingly obvious to you and the good Father does not at all necessarily mean your listeners "see" what you want them to see. Many factors...sin...intelligence...age...past traumas...health...all can leave scales on the spiritual eyes. When God removes the scales...then they see. Its not our concern beyond telling the truth. You have explained that well, and I have never missed that. I have not spoken against what you are now saying. The only thing that needs to be added is that beyond telling the truth, we also have the duty to condemn error, just as Liberalism is a Sin says we are commanded to do. Agreed...but results are Gods business.
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 14:29:30 GMT -5
You have explained that well, and I have never missed that. I have not spoken against what you are now saying. The only thing that needs to be added is that beyond telling the truth, we also have the duty to condemn error, just as Liberalism is a Sin says we are commanded to do. Agreed...but results are Gods business. Our business is to try to produce results, getting people to accept the truth and avoid error. Whether someone is willfully guilty of not accepting the truth is generally God's business.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 23, 2016 15:50:27 GMT -5
Agreed...but results are Gods business. Our business is to try to produce results, getting people to accept the truth and avoid error. Whether someone is willfully guilty of not accepting the truth is generally God's business. No sorry your business is to save your soul...declare the Truth...not produce results...results are Gods business. This is an ego trip to think we are required to produce results vis vis saved souls. We are obligated to try..if it is our calling btw. But success isnt in our control.
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 17:04:08 GMT -5
Our business is to try to produce results, getting people to accept the truth and avoid error. Whether someone is willfully guilty of not accepting the truth is generally God's business. No sorry your business is to save your soul...declare the Truth...not produce results...results are Gods business. This is an ego trip to think we are required to produce results vis vis saved souls. We are obligated to try..if it is our calling btw. But success isnt in our control. Faith without good works is a dead faith. It is part of our saving our souls to do good works and help others. The booklet we are talking about, approved by Rome, uses the word "command". Yes, of course, we should try to be successful and gain results, God's graces work along with our actions.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 23, 2016 17:11:26 GMT -5
No sorry your business is to save your soul...declare the Truth...not produce results...results are Gods business. This is an ego trip to think we are required to produce results vis vis saved souls. We are obligated to try..if it is our calling btw. But success isnt in our control. Faith without good works is a dead faith. It is part of our saving our souls to do good works and help others. The booklet we are talking about, approved by Rome, uses the word "command". Yes, of course, we should try to be successful and gain results, God's graces work along with our actions. Ephesians 4:11-16Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) ( Highlights by voxx)11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity. 1 Corinthians 13Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 13 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known. 13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity. Galatians 5:22-23Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, 23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 23, 2016 17:28:09 GMT -5
The point you keep missing is that "good works" is not contingent upon the results. By accusing folks of not being Catholic because they dont accept what your individual conscience is convinced of is not Charity....nor a good work. The body of Christ is not a four-foot by eight-foot monolith...it is sinew and bone..Brain and Liver...Mouth and Ear...heart and cartilage...hair and ribcage. Point is they are not all of the same purpose in the body...for one part cannot say to the other "Because I am a brain...and you foot are not a brain therefore, you are not of the body" You may be a great explainer but you might be talking to a poor listener.
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 17:57:09 GMT -5
Fr Fliess said: Fr. Fliess is here asserting that a Catholic cannot hold as an opinion that Francis is not the pope, even if one is not certain. He is wrong, a Catholic can and must form his conscience to the best of his ability, and if a Catholic forms such an opinion based on his understanding of the facts, he is well within his rights. It is not "utterly false" to doubt oneself and one's own judgment of the facts of the case or one's own understanding of the principles involved. It is not "utterly false" in distrusting oneself to want to wait for the judgment of authority to give the conscience certainty and dispel doubts. A Catholic is not obliged to take a position on an unsettled matter, if he remains unsure, until it is imposed upon him by authority. Even if an airtight case is presented to him demonstrating the position is true, he is still not obliged to believe it, if he remains uncertain on the matter, for whatever reason he may have. Even if his reasons are weak, it is his conscience, and he remains in good conscience so long as he is not being false to himself. Only the authority can bind, not non-authorities, who can only persuade. You misunderstood what Father said. Your reply addressed that some individual Catholics are not able to come to that conclusion. Father would not deny that some people cannot. Note his wording, "one cannot be certain..." which is the same as saying, "no one can be certain...". When Father says, "many" and "They" he is talking about those Catholics who insist that - nobody can be certain. It is quite frequently espoused on web forums. I have dealt with it often, and it boils down to where a person cannot bring himself to be certain, and cannot bear the thought that others might be capable to, so he jumps on the bandwagon to make himself feel good by saying nobody can be certain of such a thing. Then, these same people see so many other traditionalists claiming they are certain Francis is not pope, so these people concede because they want peace and don't want to think they are absolutely smarter than all those others, take to walking the fence saying that everyone may only hold that he is a false pope as an "opinion". Yes, opinion in this case does mean that the opposite could be true. Yes, it amounts to doubt. 'It might be, but then again it might not be'. It is utterly false, because a pope cannot be of a doubtful character and be a true pope. Approved Catholic books mention the principle "a doubtful pope is no pope" (papa dubius papa nullus). It is related to the moral principle of a doubtful obligation does not bind.
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 18:06:56 GMT -5
Faith without good works is a dead faith. It is part of our saving our souls to do good works and help others. The booklet we are talking about, approved by Rome, uses the word "command". Yes, of course, we should try to be successful and gain results, God's graces work along with our actions. Ephesians 4:11-16Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) ( Highlights by voxx)15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: 1 Corinthians 13Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity. Galatians 5:22-23Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, 23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. Two separate quotes by St. Pius X: "They want them to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses," he once said, referring to those who counseled compassion toward the alleged perpetrators. "But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can. War is not made with charity: it is a struggle, a duel."
"But Catholic doctrine tells us that the primary duty of charity does not lie in the toleration of false ideas, however sincere they may be, nor in the theoretical or practical indifference towards the errors and vices in which we see our brethren plunged, but in the zeal for their intellectual and moral improvement" - Pope St. Pius X
Do you think St. Pius X and the Roman authority praising "Liberalism is a Sin" were both violating Scripture? Do you even accept what "Liberalism is a Sin" says?
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 18:13:55 GMT -5
The point you keep missing is that "good works" is not contingent upon the results. Keep missing? True, if one has the intention of a good result from the good work, but it did not effect apparent good on earth, it was good because of the intention to please God. By accusing folks of not being Catholic because they dont accept what your individual conscience is convinced of is not Charity....nor a good work. I don't know where you are getting this from. Nobody is accusing someone of not be a Catholic for being convinced. I even wrote about that in my first post here.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Aug 23, 2016 18:17:48 GMT -5
so now those who dont presently accept the sedevacante position are "perpetrators?" Liberalism is a sin...as is all Lack of Charity. I really dont see what the hell you want from people? You refuse to be clear. Ill tell you what...create a hypothetical situation that describes how...in your view...your conversation with a Catholic should go if said Catholic would be "doing the right thing"...and you would be doing a "good work". Please create the scenario for us.
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Post by Damaged Goods on Aug 23, 2016 18:32:37 GMT -5
We ought to do all good works well, and so we ought to make an effort to be persuasive when instructing the ignorant. Moreover, we ought to prefer patience and forbearance to vituperation and affected outrage, as St. Pius X reminds us:
Here is a story that was told us directly by an eminent layman. On the occasion of a conversation with Pius X he chanced to let fall a few biting words against an enemy of the Church. “My son,” said the Pope, “I do not approve of the way you talk. For your penance, listen to this story. A priest I used to know very well had just arrived in his first parish. He thought it his duty to visit every family, including Jews, Protestants, and even Freemasons. Then he announced from the pulpit that he would repeat the visits every year. His confreres got very excited at this, and complained to the Bishop, and the Bishop, in turn, sent for the culprit and reprimanded him severely. ‘My Lord,’ answered the priest modestly, ‘Jesus orders his pastors, in the Gospel, to bring all His sheep into the fold, oportet Mas adducere. How are we going to do that without going out after them? Besides, I never compromise on principles, and I confine myself to expressing my interest and my charity towards all the souls entrusted to me by God, even the ones that have gone furthest astray. I have announced from the pulpit that I would make these visits; if you formally desire me to give them up, please be good enough to give me this prohibition in writing, so that everybody may know that I am simply obeying your orders.’ Moved by the justice of this appeal, the Bishop did not insist. And in any case, the future proved that the priest was right, because he had the happiness to convert a few of these strays, and inspired all the others with a great respect for our holy religion. This humble parish priest, by the will of God, eventually became the Pope who is now giving you this lesson in charity, my son! Therefore, cling firmly to principles through thick and thin, but let your charity go out to all men, even the worst enemies of the Church.”
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Post by Clarence Creedwater on Aug 23, 2016 18:34:52 GMT -5
so now those who dont presently accept the sedevacante position are "perpetrators?" Who ever said perpetrator? Anyone who professes error is a danger to others in proportion to the subject matter and their influence. Liberalism is a sin...as is all Lack of Charity. I really dont see what the hell you want from people? You refuse to be clear. Ill tell you what...create a hypothetical situation that describes how...in your view...your conversation with a Catholic should go if said Catholic would be "doing the right thing"...and you would be doing a "good work". Please create the scenario for us. You thought Father's sermon was good when you posted it. His is a perfect example. My discussion here is a real life example. No need to fabricate a conversation.
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