Post by Pacelli on Sept 19, 2023 9:18:39 GMT -5
alyosha wrote:
I agree with you that not attending these worship gatherings with sects or Pagans would be one way to avoid a conflict, but my statement was not about attending, it was about whether a Catholic could publicly dissent from the "Pope" in such matters, as these are clearly public religious practices authorized by the "Pope," and the Traditional teaching is that Catholics were not free to dissent in such matters.
Pope St. Pius X taught on dissenting from the Pope:
The obvious implication of this teaching of St. Pope Pius X is that the Pope cannot lead the Church astray, therefore Catholics must never dissent from his commands. Obviously, a Pope may make incorrect judgments, and perhaps allow a practice that is less good, but he cannot lead the Church astray by authorizing Catholics to engage in evil practices.
There is no doubt that such practices of intercommunion of Catholics and certain sects, public joint prayer services with sects, active participation of Catholics in non-Catholic rites, active participation of Catholics in Pagan worship, are now either explicitly by law, or by the example of the "Pope" approved religious practices to be used by Catholics.
The question everyone should be asking, is it possible for a Pope to approve such practices? The clear implication of St. Pius X's teaching was absolute "no!" I think the reason is obvious, the underlying presumption of St. Pius X's teachings is that the Pope must be a Catholic, and as a Catholic, he may make mistakes, but you can always trust him that he, as a Catholic, would never spiritually harm Catholics by leading them astray from the Faith or morals, therefore there can be no debate or criticism on his wishes.
Can one reconcile the teaching of St. Pius X to not debate and criticize the wishes of the pope, with the practices that are currently authorized and even being encouraged for Catholics to engage in by the express will of the "pope?" This really gets to the crux of this: are these new practices good and beneficial for Catholics or are they evil practices directly opposed to Divine Law, Ecclesiastical Law, Tradition, Scripture, and all previous Catholic teaching on such matters?
If the answer is that these new practices are evil, and underlying these practices are either heresy in regards to some of them, or apostasy in regards to others, then how can a Pope be openly practicing them and by that encouraging by example that Catholics do the same? How can many of these practices be allowed by law, thereby either forcing priests to practice them, or at a minimum allowing Catholics to use such practices? If a Catholic decided to follow the example of these "popes," and engage in these types of worship practices with sectarians or pagans, and then realized it was wrong, and then confessed it to a priest in union with Francis, most likely he would be told it's not a sin, these practices are now allowed.
Anyway, to get back to my point, if you speak out and warn Catholics that the practices named above, all approved by the so called pope, are evil and are objectively sinful, then you are openly dissenting from the "pope," and that puts you in a direct conflict, as if Francis and John Paul II were popes, you must trust them that all of these newly introduced and authorized practices for Catholics are good, and not to speak out and warn others.
One last point, and a little off topic, but in any age of the Church throughout Church history, if the Pope were offering a weekly catechism class to children, it would have always been a great honor to send your children to learn their Faith from the Pope, so, let's say Francis began a weekly class for children, if you lived in Rome, wouldn't you want the "Pope" to teach them? I think the obvious answer that any Catholic would protect their children from this man illustrates to any Catholic that this man does not have the Faith, and he would not teach your children to believe the same Faith as Catholics but would corrupt them with heresy and error, and to keep your children as far away from him as possible, in the same manner as sheep need to protected from wolves.
3- Again, in example 4, there is a way to obey both Magisteriums I think, by simply not participating in such gatherings. Certainly, the conciliar church don't bind anyone to participate in these gatherings.
I agree with you that not attending these worship gatherings with sects or Pagans would be one way to avoid a conflict, but my statement was not about attending, it was about whether a Catholic could publicly dissent from the "Pope" in such matters, as these are clearly public religious practices authorized by the "Pope," and the Traditional teaching is that Catholics were not free to dissent in such matters.
Pope St. Pius X taught on dissenting from the Pope:
Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
This is the cry of a heart filled with pain, that with deep sadness I express, not for your sake, dear brothers, but to deplore, with you, the conduct of so many priests, who not only allow themselves to debate and criticize the wishes of the Pope, but are not embarrassed to reach shameless and blatant disobedience, with so much scandal for the good and with so great damage to souls.
(Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912)
This is the cry of a heart filled with pain, that with deep sadness I express, not for your sake, dear brothers, but to deplore, with you, the conduct of so many priests, who not only allow themselves to debate and criticize the wishes of the Pope, but are not embarrassed to reach shameless and blatant disobedience, with so much scandal for the good and with so great damage to souls.
(Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912)
The obvious implication of this teaching of St. Pope Pius X is that the Pope cannot lead the Church astray, therefore Catholics must never dissent from his commands. Obviously, a Pope may make incorrect judgments, and perhaps allow a practice that is less good, but he cannot lead the Church astray by authorizing Catholics to engage in evil practices.
There is no doubt that such practices of intercommunion of Catholics and certain sects, public joint prayer services with sects, active participation of Catholics in non-Catholic rites, active participation of Catholics in Pagan worship, are now either explicitly by law, or by the example of the "Pope" approved religious practices to be used by Catholics.
The question everyone should be asking, is it possible for a Pope to approve such practices? The clear implication of St. Pius X's teaching was absolute "no!" I think the reason is obvious, the underlying presumption of St. Pius X's teachings is that the Pope must be a Catholic, and as a Catholic, he may make mistakes, but you can always trust him that he, as a Catholic, would never spiritually harm Catholics by leading them astray from the Faith or morals, therefore there can be no debate or criticism on his wishes.
Can one reconcile the teaching of St. Pius X to not debate and criticize the wishes of the pope, with the practices that are currently authorized and even being encouraged for Catholics to engage in by the express will of the "pope?" This really gets to the crux of this: are these new practices good and beneficial for Catholics or are they evil practices directly opposed to Divine Law, Ecclesiastical Law, Tradition, Scripture, and all previous Catholic teaching on such matters?
If the answer is that these new practices are evil, and underlying these practices are either heresy in regards to some of them, or apostasy in regards to others, then how can a Pope be openly practicing them and by that encouraging by example that Catholics do the same? How can many of these practices be allowed by law, thereby either forcing priests to practice them, or at a minimum allowing Catholics to use such practices? If a Catholic decided to follow the example of these "popes," and engage in these types of worship practices with sectarians or pagans, and then realized it was wrong, and then confessed it to a priest in union with Francis, most likely he would be told it's not a sin, these practices are now allowed.
Anyway, to get back to my point, if you speak out and warn Catholics that the practices named above, all approved by the so called pope, are evil and are objectively sinful, then you are openly dissenting from the "pope," and that puts you in a direct conflict, as if Francis and John Paul II were popes, you must trust them that all of these newly introduced and authorized practices for Catholics are good, and not to speak out and warn others.
One last point, and a little off topic, but in any age of the Church throughout Church history, if the Pope were offering a weekly catechism class to children, it would have always been a great honor to send your children to learn their Faith from the Pope, so, let's say Francis began a weekly class for children, if you lived in Rome, wouldn't you want the "Pope" to teach them? I think the obvious answer that any Catholic would protect their children from this man illustrates to any Catholic that this man does not have the Faith, and he would not teach your children to believe the same Faith as Catholics but would corrupt them with heresy and error, and to keep your children as far away from him as possible, in the same manner as sheep need to protected from wolves.