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Post by Pacelli on May 20, 2023 10:14:16 GMT -5
This post is to demonstrate that in Table 3 of Fr. Pierre Marie's 2005 study, "Validity of New Episcopal Consecrations," column 4, he does not use the Maronite episcopal consecration rite, rather he uses the Maronite rite for the elevation of a Patriarch. The difference should be obvious, as the office of Patriarch is an office that pertains to jurisdiction, the ruling power of the Church, while the consecration of a bishop is a sacramental rite. Fr. Pierre Marie did correctly cite it in the paper, as can be seen below, but he failed to explain to the reader that in this comparison, that he was not using an episcopal consecration rite in a table that was meant to be showing a comparison between the 1968 Paul VI approved episcopal consecration rite with the Maronite, Coptic and rite of Hippolytus forms of episcopal consecration. This has been noted in published critiques of the 2005 study, such as that of by Dr. Coomaraswamy and Fr. Cekada, but to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever demonstrated this point in detail, to make it clear to the reader that this is an undisputed fact, not merely an assertion. It's also worth noting that I have read that some claim that if a Patriarch is elected, while being only a priest, that the rite of elevation could be used without the consecration rite of bishop. That claim has never been proven, and the burden of proof of any making such a claim resides with the one asserting it. Until such a claim is proven, it is baseless. Has the Church ever used a rite of installation of a bishop, patriarch or pope in place of an episcopal consecration rite in order to consecrate a man as a bishop? The book, Ritus Orientalum, vol. II, published in 1844, by Fr. Henry Denzinger, is available on archive.org linked HERE I urge the reader to look at the book for yourself as you follow along with this post. I am placing 5 scans in this post. 1. A photo of table 3 of Fr. Pierre Marie's study. The complete table is found in English on the SSPX linked HERE2. A photo of the source, mentioned above, that Fr. Pierre Marie uses for his table, column 3 and 4. This post only focuses on column 4, the rite of elevation of the Maronite Patriarch. 3. A photo of the table of contents from the book, where the two sub-chapters are marked, with the episcopal consecration rite beginning on page 187 and the consecration rite of a patriarch being found on page 206. 4. A photo of page 187, the beginning of the Maronite episcopal consecration rite. 5. A photo of page 206, the beginning of the Maronite rite of the elevation of the Patriarch.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 21, 2023 22:25:31 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli, Given that you have Fr Pierre Marie's contact details (see my second email to you), will you be writing to him to inform him of the facts above?
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Post by Pacelli on May 21, 2023 22:29:51 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli , Given that you have Fr Pierre Marie's contact details (see my second email to you), will you be writing to him to inform him of the facts above? I am not sure. I haven't really thought much about writing him. Feel free to send him the links and if he wants to discuss, I will discuss it with him.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 22, 2023 2:55:29 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli , Given that you have Fr Pierre Marie's contact details (see my second email to you), will you be writing to him to inform him of the facts above? I am not sure. I haven't really thought much about writing him. Feel free to send him the links and if he wants to discuss, I will discuss it with him. I have raised the question with him and linked to this thread in the hope that if he has evidence of the historical use of the Rite to raise someone to the Episcopacy he might consider sharing it with me or posting it here. Thankyou for providing the English language text for the Marionite Rite for consecrating a Bishop.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 23, 2023 18:26:40 GMT -5
Fr Pierre Marie has responded to my request for further information with the following:
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Post by Pacelli on May 24, 2023 13:11:28 GMT -5
Fr Pierre Marie has responded to my request for further information with the following: Thank you John Lewis ! That's not evidence that it was used for episcopal consecration. All he provided was an assertion, without proof, that it was probable that "originally it had a consecratory effect." I would like to know which Patriarch that was elected as a priest, and had this rite exclusively used, and the rite of episcopal consecration rite was not used when the priest became a bishop/Patriarch. Another question is why he didn't caution the reader in his study that this was merely an opinion, without any evidence to support the opinion, that this rite was merely probably used as a consecration rite of a bishop and the episcopal consecration rite was not used if a priest was elected to become a patriarch? I would also ask for any substantiation of this opinion by a theologian or Catholic historian who studied the old records of the Maronite patriarchs to see if there is any evidence to support his and Fr. Calderon's opinion?
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Post by wenceslav on May 24, 2023 13:17:57 GMT -5
Also, a reference in Fr. Cekada’s article “Absolutely Null and Utterly Void - The 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration” from Chor-Bishop Gabriel Khouri-Sarkis states the following regarding the distinction to be made between the consecration of a bishop and installation of a patriarch:
This was published in the preeminent journal “L’Orient Syrien 8 (1963), 140-1, 156-7” founded by the same Chor-Bp. Khouri-Sarkis. I certainly would like to see the original paper but if indeed the above is factual, this would seem to counter Fr. Pierre Marie’s statement by a well known scholar with a great weight of authority.
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Post by Pacelli on May 25, 2023 9:39:46 GMT -5
Also, a reference in Fr. Cekada’s article “Absolutely Null and Utterly Void - The 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration” from Chor-Bishop Gabriel Khouri-Sarkis states the following regarding the distinction to be made between the consecration of a bishop and installation of a patriarch: This was published in the preeminent journal “L’Orient Syrien 8 (1963), 140-1, 156-7” founded by the same Chor-Bp. Khouri-Sarkis. I certainly would like to see the original paper but if indeed the above is factual, this would seem to counter Fr. Pierre Marie’s statement by a well known scholar with a great weight of authority. Wenceslav, a very good point. I think we really need to get ahold of the the article you quoted from above and get it translated to shed more light on this. I will see if I can find it.
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Post by Pacelli on May 25, 2023 9:47:15 GMT -5
I was discussing this with another Catholic that I hold in high regard, and the person had another good point to this matter:
If the Maronite rite of elevating a Patriarch has the consecratory effect of a sacramental rite of episcopal consecration, in addition to elevating one to a Patriarch, and since bishops are elevated to the Patriarchate, then how could the rite be used to elevate a bishop to become a Patriarch without being a sacrilegious repetition of consecrating a bishop who is already a bishop?
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Post by wenceslav on May 26, 2023 12:47:02 GMT -5
Below you will find the URL for the article by +Khouri-Sarkis. Fr. Cekada’s analysis was right on the money in my opinion. It is true that the main difference (between the consecration of a bishop and installation of the patriarch) is the prayer of St. Clement of Rome (which according to Fr. Cekada is the basis of the New Rite). Moreover, even the Maronite Syrian Catholic [they use Antiochene Rite like the Maronites] pontifical describes the installation as a mettas rhonûto or an investiture while the consecration of bishops as a syom'îdo. URL(original French): drive.google.com/file/d/1iPqOOjcC069CSi1gWDtBrsrJEIQwwuK1/view?usp=drivesdkBelow is the google translation of the relevant pages. Please feel free to post translations of other pages. Due to time restrictions on my part, I only translated the bare minimum.
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Post by wenceslav on May 26, 2023 13:17:06 GMT -5
For those interested, I have a copy of the Installation of a Syrian “Eastern Orthodox “ patriarch. On page 7, you will find the invocation of the Holy Spirit of St. Clement [of Rome] . I apologize for using a schismatic source but I could not find an English version from the corresponding Catholic Rite. URL: drive.google.com/file/d/1wTI4D0k5_grb-r1eGXUyGQkTOrxOKhPu/view?usp=drivesdk
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Post by Pacelli on May 26, 2023 16:36:37 GMT -5
Great job finding the article and so fast as well! Thank you also for taking the time to transcribe it to the translator. This does seem to settle it, in addition to the other points above. All evidence is showing that this rite for the installation of the Maronite Patriarch is not used to also consecrate a bishop. Those asserting otherwise have provided no evidence at all for their opinion.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 28, 2023 0:03:21 GMT -5
Fr Pierre Marie has declined to answer any further questions posed in the thread due to "lack of time" and is referring me back to his articles for information. I would however appreciate it if someone could draft a response to him as I think that it would be prudent to point out what you have found to him. The Avrille Dominicans to whom he belongs have distanced themselves from the SSPX because of their closer relations with modernist Rome. I am requesting prayers for Fr Pierre Marie and offering Masses in the hope that God will change his mind on this issue, for it is key for the SSPX to be able to recognise where the Church is, and isn't in these times. I am afraid that I don't fully understand all that wenceslav has posted above, but if summary rebuttal could be written I would be happy to send it to Fr along with additional information that might make him take this more seriously. Any help you could provide Pacelli , samuelsede & sdwright would be appreciated.
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Post by wenceslav on May 28, 2023 22:11:01 GMT -5
Hi John, If you read pp. 6-7 of Fr. Cekada’s article (URL: www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf) you will get the gist of why I quoted the Khouri-Sarkis paper ( regarding the related Syrian rite) above. It seems all the arguments that Fr. Pierre Marie made in his correspondence with you are answered by Fr. Cekada, quite solidly I may add. At this point I am unsure if Fr. Pierre Marie really made an effort to even read Fr. Cekada’s rebuttal to his arguments. if for some reason the above link does not work just google: “ Still Null and Still Void Replies to objections from Br. Ansgar Santogrossi, Fr. Pierre-Marie de Kergorlay and Fr. Alvaro Calderon”
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on May 28, 2023 22:58:04 GMT -5
Hi John, If you read pp. 6-7 of Fr. Cekada’s article you will get the gist of why I quoted the Khouri-Sarkis paper ( regarding the related Syrian rite) above. It seems all the arguments that Fr. Pierre Marie made in his correspondence with you are answered by Fr. Cekada, quite solidly I may add. At this point I am unsure if Fr. Pierre Marie really made an effort to even read Fr. Cekada’s rebuttal to his arguments. if for some reason the above link does not work just google: “ Still Null and Still Void Replies to objections from Br. Ansgar Santogrossi, Fr. Pierre-Marie de Kergorlay and Fr. Alvaro Calderon”Thanks Wenceslav. Fr Cekada seems to have addressed Fr Pierre-Marie's most recent objection expressed to me and posted here in relation to Fr Calderon on page 8 of the linked article above.
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