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Post by Pacelli on Dec 8, 2022 15:50:11 GMT -5
I am adding this to this discussion per request:
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Post by Pacelli on Apr 14, 2023 12:17:02 GMT -5
This emerging heresy has the potential to separate a large proportion of clergy who hold sede vacante and those that follow them from the Catholic Church. Please offer your Mass, Holy Communion and Rosary intentions for the defeat of this heresy and all that flows from it (including the no Una Cum position). I see a major split coming if this isn’t quelled. Beyond chapels and priests, this has the ability to make brother Catholics enemies and sow discord within families. Clotilde, Your intuition is now the reality. I am seeing more people openly deny that they must adhere to the Catholic teaching as explained by the theologians who have all taught this in consensus. It's very disturbing, and it is the foundation of a new heretical sect. They present no sources for their novelty, but attack the Catholics who defend the Faith with approved sources. Their argument solely relies on their own private speculation, not approved sources. It's all from the Feeneyite playbook, but instead of denying Baptism of Desire and Blood, it denies the Apostolicity of the Church, the indefectibility of the Church, and the Divine Constitution of the Church.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 17, 2023 23:19:29 GMT -5
I stopped reading Stephen Speray a while back, but it seems he has been thinking about Apostolic Succession and so I thought I'd share this article from May 12 for commenting:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 23:57:56 GMT -5
I stopped reading Stephen Speray a while back, but it seems he has been thinking about Apostolic Succession and so I thought I'd share this article from May 12 for commenting: This is dangerous nonsense. If he can just dismiss the necessity of apostolicity, because it fits his preconceived notions, then why can’t the SSPX just severely restrict infallibility to make Bergoglio fit in? If people just start dismissing dogmas that don’t fit the preconceived position that they want to have, then our entire endeavour to understand the situation in the Church becomes meaningless and a type of political war between different propaganda circles. This is becoming more and more a political camp formation. People lack the necessary seriousness and objectivity and just want to push their own view through while condemning everyone else as “heretic” and “non-Catholic”. This is an embarrassment
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 18, 2023 0:02:39 GMT -5
This is dangerous nonsense. If he can just dismiss the necessity of apostolicity, because it fits his preconceived notions, then why can’t the SSPX just severely restrict infallibility to make Bergoglio fit in? If people just start dismissing dogmas that don’t find the preconceived position that they want to have, then our entire endeavour to understand the situation in the Church becomes meaningless and a type of political war between different propaganda circles. This is becoming more and more a political camp formation. People lack the necessary seriousness and objectivity and just want to push their own view through while condemning everyone else as “heretic” and “non-Catholic”. This is an embarrassment I agree with you. Someone should probably be writing and telling him this.
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 18, 2023 8:52:28 GMT -5
Through the entire post, he does not provide a single approved Catholic source that says what he is saying. The Catholic sources stand against him, which is probably why is not quoting them, and just offering his own commentary. The apostolic succession is comprised of both the apostolic Faith and the Apostolic succession, also commonly referred to as the hierarchy. Both are essential to the Church. To deny this truth is heretical.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 23, 2023 23:05:23 GMT -5
Through the entire post, he does not provide a single approved Catholic source that says what he is saying. The Catholic sources stand against him, which is probably why is not quoting them, and just offering his own commentary. The apostolic succession is comprised of both the apostolic Faith and the Apostolic succession, also commonly referred to as the hierarchy. Both are essential to the Church. To deny this truth is heretical. I have quoted most of the resources in this thread in my response to him. His response is below: I understand these teachings to not be opinions, but to be part of the infallible Universal Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. Am I correct in this understanding?
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 24, 2023 4:24:38 GMT -5
I have quoted most of the resources in this thread in my response to him. His response is below: I understand these teachings to not be opinions, but to be part of the infallible Universal Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. Am I correct in this understanding? Last time I checked, the apostolicity of the Church was part of the Creed. What does he mean when he says we have lawful pastors? Does he mean trad priests? He is not arguing against the Apostolicity of the Church. He is stating that the quotes in this particular thread on the necessity of there always being actual successors to the Apostles at all times are a matter of theological opinion and not de fide Church teaching. He believes trad priest are lawful pastors.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 24, 2023 5:03:38 GMT -5
Let me share here the following treatment of Apostolicity by Dr. Thomas Specht, Lehrbuch der Apologetik oder Fundamentaltheologie, 1912, p. 303 (ChatGPT translation): "As a mark of the Church, the apostolicity of its constitution, and especially the succession of bishops, comes into consideration. This is, so to speak, the spiritual lineage of the Church. The true Church can only be the one that stems from the uninterrupted succession of its bishops from the Apostles and thus possesses the mission and authority of the Apostles. For the apostolic succession to be a mark of the true Church, it must be not only materially but also formally apostolic, meaning the successor of the Apostles must be in communion with the apostolic Church as a whole and its head." He is arguing that quotes like this are just "the0logical opinion" and not magisterial teaching.
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 24, 2023 5:52:54 GMT -5
He is arguing that quotes like this are just "the0logical opinion" and not magisterial teaching. But that means he is effectively denying that the true Church has to be apostolic. Unless he believes that apostolicity is somehow preserved by trad bishops. I believe this position is anarchic That is what he believes.
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 24, 2023 15:54:00 GMT -5
Through the entire post, he does not provide a single approved Catholic source that says what he is saying. The Catholic sources stand against him, which is probably why is not quoting them, and just offering his own commentary. The apostolic succession is comprised of both the apostolic Faith and the Apostolic succession, also commonly referred to as the hierarchy. Both are essential to the Church. To deny this truth is heretical. I have quoted most of the resources in this thread in my response to him. His response is below: I understand these teachings to not be opinions, but to be part of the infallible Universal Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. Am I correct in this understanding? It’s an interesting thing to see this. He is asking you for magisterial teaching, yet provides absolutely no magisterial teaching or any Catholic source of any weight to support his opinion. All he has presented are unsupported ideas, nothing more. He in many ways argues like a Feeneyite, refusing to learn from the theologians and only relying on himself and his personal understanding and interpretation of Catholic teaching. Every theologian that has written on this matter contradicts him. Sacred Scripture contradicts him, and it’s not me privately interpreting scripture, read the citations of the theologians, they rely on scriptural arguments. Read the Catholic commentaries on those verses. As far as Magisterial teaching, the Vatican Council taught this and Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum taught very explicitly on this. I don’t have time today to dig through the documents and quote them on here, but now he knows where to look.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 24, 2023 17:22:05 GMT -5
It’s an interesting thing to see this. He is asking you for magisterial teaching, yet provides absolutely no magisterial teaching or any Catholic source of any weight to support his opinion. All he has presented are unsupported ideas, nothing more. He in many ways argues like a Feeneyite, refusing to learn from the theologians and only relying on himself and his personal understanding and interpretation of Catholic teaching. Every theologian that has written on this matter contradicts him. Sacred Scripture contradicts him, and it’s not me privately interpreting scripture, read the citations of the theologians, they rely on scriptural arguments. Read the Catholic commentaries on those verses. As far as Magisterial teaching, the Vatican Council taught this and Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum taught very explicitly on this. I don’t have time today to dig through the documents and quote them on here, but now he knows where to look. This was all I could find in Satis Cognitum:
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 24, 2023 20:57:25 GMT -5
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Post by wenceslav on Jul 24, 2023 22:30:59 GMT -5
Just getting back to Speray - Here is one of Mr. Speray’s answers to my queries in the ComBox of the NovusOrdoWatch article on “Bp.” Huondor (3 months ago):
Unfortunately, those like Mr. Speray believe in a hierarchy of potency - a complete innovation. Even though they believe the Catholic hierarchy has entirely disappeared, he kept referring to our present situation like the situation during an interregnum where the Church possesses the potential to re-elect a new pope.(i.e like in the latest article by Speray). From his answers to me, he also denies that any bishops in the Eastern rites may be true successors of the Apostles because they are not openly sedevacantist and they do not condemn the Novus Ordo sect. It is really a horrible mess.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Jul 25, 2023 6:28:47 GMT -5
Thanks, I was trying to read through it very late at night, which is the wrong time to do such things. I've reposted this here as I think it is important for the thread itself. (The following excepts are from Pope Leo XIII's encyclical, Satis Cognitum, "On the Unity of the Church," June 29, 1896.The selected experts were drawn to highlight the pope's teaching on the nature of apostolic succession and its uninterrupted and permanent character as part of the Divine Constitution of the Church. All emphasis added) Full encyclical found HERE
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