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Post by Clotilde on Oct 9, 2017 11:46:09 GMT -5
This website has a lot of info on NFP (or as it was called, "rhythm") before Vatican II www.cmri.org/03-nfp.htmlIt seems that a lot of the opposition to NFP comes from laypeople and not traditional clergy. People are very quick to mention that you need a serious reason (and you do) but the laypeople at your chapel should not harass you about what is and is not a serious reason. My wife has gotten the third degree from church ladies asking why we don't have more children. Those people are lucky to be alive, haha Seriously. I still have people checking up on me to see if I'm expecting. I'm starting to get irritated. I wish we could all agree not to think about the private issues of other couples. I'd even settle for those who cannot do that just to keep their mouth shut.
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Post by Clotilde on Oct 9, 2017 11:48:17 GMT -5
They weren't... Some groups are becoming sectarian and cult-like and it kind of disturbs me. If I remember correctly, you're from somewhere near Seattle. There's Corpus Christi in Seattle (SSPX) and North American Martyrs (FSSP). There's sedevacantists in both groups, so you'd be in good hands. I think there are a few forthcoming publications that are going to add fuel to the cult fire. I pray that they are never completed.
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Post by jen51 on Oct 9, 2017 13:13:14 GMT -5
Thanks Chester. Why oh why didn't I go to the Byz Catholic Church first? If I had I wouldn't be tied down to playing the organ at this far away chapel because Byz is all a Capella. And I could go to Sat evening Divine Liturgy and still make my husband happy by being able to hike with him on Sunday morning. If I tell them I'm leaving to go Byz, I'll Be anathema as they are una cum and I took this stupid vow thing. I am so depressed about this situation. You gave me the cutest Avatar, Vox. Why didn't I listen to you about Eastern Rite in the first place? This frumpy over conservative tradism is depressing the h out of me. Kim, you can still go Byzantine. You are not bound to that vow (someone correct me if I am wrong). You are not obligated to play the organ for them. Your obligations are that of tending to your own soul, and your families, not the opinions and feelings of others, especially others who insist you take a bogus vow, and hold you to all sorts of weird extremes. I've only heard your account of this place. Perhaps other attendees have had a much nicer experience than you. But from what you describe, I would have found my way to the door like yesterday. I'm glad you started this thread. I agree with the advice others have given. Don't go Orthadox!
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Post by kim on Oct 9, 2017 16:27:44 GMT -5
Thank you sweet Jen. All the little kids at the Latin church that I teach music class to were so happy to see me last sunday (we just got back from Europe) and the priest was so happy to see me and I'm one of those people who loves to please people --we make good nurses youknow. I had a talk with God and decided I would give it until Christmas and re-assess. Feeling a little better about the decision ---chilling out here with a Bloody Mary before I go to sleep.I have also scrubbed the kitchen and that also has put me in a better mood.They are really good people--but I am never gonna think like most of them barring a miracle.
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Post by kim on Oct 9, 2017 16:28:39 GMT -5
This website has a lot of info on NFP (or as it was called, "rhythm") before Vatican II www.cmri.org/03-nfp.htmlIt seems that a lot of the opposition to NFP comes from laypeople and not traditional clergy. People are very quick to mention that you need a serious reason (and you do) but the laypeople at your chapel should not harass you about what is and is not a serious reason. My wife has gotten the third degree from church ladies asking why we don't have more children. Those people are lucky to be alive, haha Seriously. I still have people checking up on me to see if I'm expecting. I'm starting to get irritated. I wish we could all agree not to think about the private issues of other couples. I'd even settle for those who cannot do that just to keep their mouth shut. Seriously!!!!!😠😠😠😠😠
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 9, 2017 19:07:44 GMT -5
Thanks Chester. Why oh why didn't I go to the Byz Catholic Church first? If I had I wouldn't be tied down to playing the organ at this far away chapel because Byz is all a Capella. And I could go to Sat evening Divine Liturgy and still make my husband happy by being able to hike with him on Sunday morning. If I tell them I'm leaving to go Byz, I'll Be anathema as they are una cum and I took this stupid vow thing. I am so depressed about this situation. You gave me the cutest Avatar, Vox. Why didn't I listen to you about Eastern Rite in the first place? This frumpy over conservative tradism is depressing the h out of me. Frankly the English speaking Ukrainians are the least nosey Catholics I have ever met. The Ukrainian speakers can be xenophibic and suspicious..but that is due to suffering under Jewish Bolshivism. The Byzantines are a bit full of themselves but lately they are just happy to see anyone showing up for Liturgy. Frankly frankly I hold the Eastern Rites as Superior over all to the Latin rite. With God making it a sort of Good Cop "bad" Cop situation. The Latins need to be more rigid and stoic in order to be the effective Ruling rite over all. But that is just a faulty personal opinion.
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Post by Clotilde on Oct 9, 2017 21:05:52 GMT -5
Thanks Chester. Why oh why didn't I go to the Byz Catholic Church first? If I had I wouldn't be tied down to playing the organ at this far away chapel because Byz is all a Capella. And I could go to Sat evening Divine Liturgy and still make my husband happy by being able to hike with him on Sunday morning. If I tell them I'm leaving to go Byz, I'll Be anathema as they are una cum and I took this stupid vow thing. I am so depressed about this situation. You gave me the cutest Avatar, Vox. Why didn't I listen to you about Eastern Rite in the first place? This frumpy over conservative tradism is depressing the h out of me. Frankly the English speaking Ukrainians are the least nosey Catholics I have ever met. The Ukrainian speakers can be xenophibic and suspicious..but that is due to suffering under Jewish Bolshivism. The Byzantines are a bit full of themselves but lately they are just happy to see anyone showing up for Liturgy. Frankly frankly I hold the Eastern Rites as Superior over all to the Latin rite. With God making it a sort of Good Cop "bad" Cop situation. The Latins need to be more rigid and stoic in order to be the effective Ruling rite over all. But that is just a faulty personal opinion. That actually makes fodder for a good discussion. The Latin Church does have some peripheral issues and attitudes that are problematic, or at least the Crisis has magnified them.
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Post by kim on Oct 10, 2017 4:46:49 GMT -5
Also I should qualify something I said earlier. The priest at this chapel does allow a female schola to sing as long as no one voice is prominent (that's usually me but I've learned to adjust and I don't have a problem with this). It's a small group and when I returned from vacation I found out that one of the best singer's husband had ordered her not to sing because of the writings of some pope before Pius XII. This is the brute traddie mentality I can't stand. They now attend a Mass with no music. I know this young woman is sad--she loved to sing. I just want to punch her husband's lights out.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 10, 2017 11:18:52 GMT -5
Also I should qualify something I said earlier. The priest at this chapel does allow a female schola to sing as long as no one voice is prominent (that's usually me but I've learned to adjust and I don't have a problem with this). It's a small group and when I returned from vacation I found out that one of the best singer's husband had ordered her not to sing because of the writings of some pope before Pius XII. This is the brute traddie mentality I can't stand. They now attend a Mass with no music. I know this young woman is sad--she loved to sing. I just want to punch her husband's lights out. Embrace the suck sister. Were in a war.
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Post by kim on Oct 10, 2017 11:29:38 GMT -5
Also I should qualify something I said earlier. The priest at this chapel does allow a female schola to sing as long as no one voice is prominent (that's usually me but I've learned to adjust and I don't have a problem with this). It's a small group and when I returned from vacation I found out that one of the best singer's husband had ordered her not to sing because of the writings of some pope before Pius XII. This is the brute traddie mentality I can't stand. They now attend a Mass with no music. I know this young woman is sad--she loved to sing. I just want to punch her husband's lights out. Embrace the suck sister. Were in a war. General suckitude indeed!!
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 10, 2017 14:10:32 GMT -5
Embrace the suck sister. Were in a war. General suckitude indeed!! Yes things are very difficult, but when were they not? What is accomplished by negative reflection? Is it not a more comforting reflection to focus on the fact that God created us specifically to deal with and live in such a time? That is not to say we cannot feel sorrow for the situation and state of affairs, just it is not healthy, productive, or good to feel sorry for ourselves I think. Was St Joan of Arc in a rosier time of history? Imagine if we were condemned by true clergy as she was. I can't imagine the internal doubts that must have assailed her in the dungeons. That is not to say we cannot try to effect change in matters under of our control. Where we go to Church is one of those matters. Also I believe it is completely appropriate to have rational, charitable conversation with other souls who, although like us are struggling through this crisis, are enforcing certain practices through misguided zeal. Breaching the topics of contraversy can be challenging for sure, and I find it best to approach the other person with humble and sincere questions in working out matters of a dubious nature which another is trying to impose. Take the matter of womene singing that you mentioned. What is the historical evidence? Did women sing in choirs prior 1950? If so, how can it be viewed as wrong. What is the basis for its condemnation? If a pope has condemned it, have them cite the document and relevant passage. What is it specifically condemning? Questions like these may help add a new perspective and the other party revaluate his previous position.
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Post by udoc89 on Oct 10, 2017 17:48:58 GMT -5
Thanks Chester. Why oh why didn't I go to the Byz Catholic Church first? If I had I wouldn't be tied down to playing the organ at this far away chapel because Byz is all a Capella. And I could go to Sat evening Divine Liturgy and still make my husband happy by being able to hike with him on Sunday morning. If I tell them I'm leaving to go Byz, I'll Be anathema as they are una cum and I took this stupid vow thing. I am so depressed about this situation. You gave me the cutest Avatar, Vox. Why didn't I listen to you about Eastern Rite in the first place? This frumpy over conservative tradism is depressing the h out of me. Frankly the English speaking Ukrainians are the least nosey Catholics I have ever met. The Ukrainian speakers can be xenophibic and suspicious..but that is due to suffering under Jewish Bolshivism. The Byzantines are a bit full of themselves but lately they are just happy to see anyone showing up for Liturgy. Frankly frankly I hold the Eastern Rites as Superior over all to the Latin rite. With God making it a sort of Good Cop "bad" Cop situation. The Latins need to be more rigid and stoic in order to be the effective Ruling rite over all. But that is just a faulty personal opinion. I really wish there were one closer than two hours away! Too old and too bad a driver to make this trip weekly. The Eastern Catholics seem to be the most persecuted of any group, Catholic or otherwise. I like underdogs. I have a feeling Our Lord does, too.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 10, 2017 18:59:14 GMT -5
General suckitude indeed!! Yes things are very difficult, but when were they not? What is accomplished by negative reflection? Is it not a more comforting reflection to focus on the fact that God created us specifically to deal with and live in such a time? That is not to say we cannot feel sorrow for the situation and state of affairs, just it is not healthy, productive, or good to feel sorry for ourselves I think. Was St Joan of Arc in a rosier time of history? Imagine if we were condemned by true clergy as she was. I can't imagine the internal doubts that must have assailed her in the dungeons. That is not to say we cannot try to effect change in matters under of our control. Where we go to Church is one of those matters. Also I believe it is completely appropriate to have rational, charitable conversation with other souls who, although like us are struggling through this crisis, are enforcing certain practices through misguided zeal. Breaching the topics of contraversy can be challenging for sure, and I find it best to approach the other person with humble and sincere questions in working out matters of a dubious nature which another is trying to impose. Take the matter of womene singing that you mentioned. What is the historical evidence? Did women sing in choirs prior 1950? If so, how can it be viewed as wrong. What is the basis for its condemnation? If a pope has condemned it, have them cite the document and relevant passage. What is it specifically condemning? Questions like these may help add a new perspective and the other party revaluate his previous position. Embrace the suck is a positive outlook on suffering and drudgery.
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Post by semperfidelis on Oct 10, 2017 23:02:08 GMT -5
Yes things are very difficult, but when were they not? What is accomplished by negative reflection? Is it not a more comforting reflection to focus on the fact that God created us specifically to deal with and live in such a time? That is not to say we cannot feel sorrow for the situation and state of affairs, just it is not healthy, productive, or good to feel sorry for ourselves I think. Was St Joan of Arc in a rosier time of history? Imagine if we were condemned by true clergy as she was. I can't imagine the internal doubts that must have assailed her in the dungeons. That is not to say we cannot try to effect change in matters under of our control. Where we go to Church is one of those matters. Also I believe it is completely appropriate to have rational, charitable conversation with other souls who, although like us are struggling through this crisis, are enforcing certain practices through misguided zeal. Breaching the topics of contraversy can be challenging for sure, and I find it best to approach the other person with humble and sincere questions in working out matters of a dubious nature which another is trying to impose. Take the matter of womene singing that you mentioned. What is the historical evidence? Did women sing in choirs prior 1950? If so, how can it be viewed as wrong. What is the basis for its condemnation? If a pope has condemned it, have them cite the document and relevant passage. What is it specifically condemning? Questions like these may help add a new perspective and the other party revaluate his previous position. Embrace the suck is a positive outlook on suffering and drudgery. Oh, my apologies then. I just misinterpreted your expression.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 11, 2017 4:16:30 GMT -5
I think its a term the Marines use when on difficult missions.A vulger version of embracing your cross.
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