John Lewis
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Reviewing the Knowledge
Posts: 372
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Post by John Lewis on Oct 25, 2023 14:09:15 GMT -5
I understand that a new book has been published by St Agobard press defending the Paul VI Rite of Episcopal Consecration by Abbe Rioult. You can find more information here. If anyone has a copy or knows what it says it would be interesting to know.
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Post by Didymus on Oct 25, 2023 18:04:22 GMT -5
Wow, this surprised me,I bought several of his books in the past, in practice he was a sedevacantist but he never called himself as such since he did not want to participate in any group, nor did it promote the error of not attending the Masses of the SSPX. I don't know if he has changed his opinion, but it would be interesting what he has to say about that.
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Post by Clotilde on Oct 27, 2023 9:21:41 GMT -5
I did not order the book obviously but from the description, I think he is dealing with the likely deficiencies of some traditionalist writers. It sounds like it is going to deal heavily with the intent of the minister and defend why the rite in itself is valid according to the teachings of Pius XII and Leo XIII. I did not see a table of contents but I am not sure if it will deal with the origins of the rite. But I think what he will argue is that the rite can be reformed and was done so within the parameters set by previous popes. If he is making such an argument that the pope has the right to reform the rite itself—how does he even begin to argue the existence of the SSPX?! Anyhow, I would have to read it but these are my initial impressions based on a quick scan of the page, I could be entirely wrong.
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Post by Didymus on Oct 27, 2023 15:29:54 GMT -5
I will buy the book. I am interested in knowing what it has to say. Does anyone here speak French and Spanish or French and English?
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John Lewis
Full Member
Reviewing the Knowledge
Posts: 372
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Post by John Lewis on Oct 28, 2023 18:42:48 GMT -5
I know a French speaker, but I don't speak it myself.
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Post by Pacelli on Oct 31, 2023 7:06:17 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I can't read French, so I will have to wait to see if there is an English translation before looking at his arguments.
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John Lewis
Full Member
Reviewing the Knowledge
Posts: 372
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Post by John Lewis on Nov 4, 2023 18:33:56 GMT -5
My French-speaking associate plans to purchase the book for Christmas, so perhaps I'll learn more about it then.
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Post by Didymus on Nov 8, 2023 5:25:30 GMT -5
I have the book in my possession, It would also be nice if someone who speaks French and English could help me with the transcription or translation of the book. I am not sure if I should upload the entire book as I do not want to have problems of Author, any suggestions?. I will upload the Table of Contents and if there is something in particular that interests you at the moment I can use OCR and the DEEPL translator to bring it into English: Foreword Introduction I. Sacramental theology II. How can Eugene IV and Pius XII be reconciled as regards the essential form? a. The authority of the decree (1439)_ b. Doctrine of the decree and the essential rite of ordination (1947) c. The Paul VI rite 1. The grace of the Holy Spirit: "Spiritus principalis" 2. The Power of Order: "donavit sanctis Apostolis". III. Leo XIII and the intention to do what the Church does. a. The Bull Apostolicæ curæ (1896) b. Commentary in the Dictionary of Catholic Theology (1931). c. The intention to carry out what Jesus Christ instituted. d. The Paul VI rite 1. Anti-Catholic purpose and help from heterodox sects 2. The ideas of the reformers: Father Lecuyer 3. The official doctrines 4. The conciliar doctrine of collegiality Conclusion Appendices Appendix 1. Episcopal power (St Thomas Aquinas, 1262) Appendix 2. The intention of the magisterium (Cardinal Franzelin, 1870) Appendix 3. True orthodoxy by Father Jugie (1941). Appendix 4. "Pontificalis Romani" by Paul VI (1968) Appendix 5. Ordination of a bishop (Roman Pontifical, 1977) Appendix 6. Ordinations according to the Roman Pontifical (1596)
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Post by Didymus on Nov 8, 2023 8:58:18 GMT -5
Reading quickly I could see that he mentions the Hippolytus question and the question with the Anglicans. Of course I think that everything has to be put in context of the argument that is being made in the book but I am only enclosing this as a sample. Quote from the book: (...) probably conferred by a minister who lacked inner intention, this sacrament must be repeated conditionally, unless time allows Rome to be consulted as to what should be done. Today, Rome will almost always reply that the sacrament must be conditionally repeated. for baptism or ordination. d. The Paul VI riteIt now only remains for us to conclude by seeing how these teachings confirm or invalidate the validity of the new rite of consecration promulgated by Paul VI. First of all, it should be noted that while Paul VI's rite is indeed a new rite, it is not <<an absolutely new rite (Apostolicæ cura), since it is inspired by ancient rites even if it does not reproduce them entirely. Dom Botte himself responded to Father Louis Bouyer's criticisms in a letter dated June 2, 1966: "Can it be reworked (the Roman formula), enriched or replaced by another formula? I hardly see any way of reworking it. It has its own unity. [...] Have theologians compose a new formula? God forbid! I personally refuse to do so, and I don't think anyone is capable of it. From For the sacrament to be valid, the minister's intention must also be present or at least virtual. The intention to do an act, and, in the present question, to do what the Church does, can be actual, virtual or habitual. The intention is actual, when the will is consciously exercised on a thing that is presently willed. It is virtual in the opposite case, as when we act in a state of distraction. Finally, habitual intention is that which has ceased to be virtual. [...] The actual intention to do what the Church does is not required for the minister of the sacrament to act in a valid manner; the virtual intention is sufficient. The sacrament is therefore valid when the minister is distracted while conferring it; provided, however, that the distraction does not prevent him from performing the essential rites in full. This is the very teaching of Saint Thomas, with the difference that the Angelic Doctor calls habitual intention what we today call virtual intention. (Sum. theol, III, q. 64, art. 8, ad 3). There is therefore only one solution: look to the Eastern tradition. In the patriarchate of Antioch [and] Alexandria, we find the prayer of Hyppolytus. Whoever wrote the prayer, it's a fact of tradition. The crux of Apostolica cura's argument for declaring the Anglican rite null and void lay in "the espr [which animated the authors of the Ordinal with regard to the Catholic Church, fet the] support they sought from heterodox sects, and fle] the goal they pursued"; hence the following criterion: "to determine the value of the new rite used to confer the priesthood, to clarify the meaning of the formula adopted therein, it is to the ideas of the reformers themselves and to the official doctrines that we must have recourse. official doctrines". Let's look at these various points in turn. 1. Anti-Catholic aims and the help of heterodox sectsOn this subject, the Rore Sanctifica committee often quotes Mgr Bugnini as saying: "We must strip our Catholic prayers and liturgy of anything that might represent the shadow of a stumbling block to our(...) 40 Le sel de la terre, n°54, Autumn 2005, p.93.Abbé Cekada's criticism of the Copts (Appendix 2 - Absolutely null and totally vain, March 25, 2006), taken up by the Committee (Notitiae 8, p. 12) is dishonest and irrelevant. Abbé Cekada describes some dubious sacramental practices among the Copts, "after the Muslim conquest of North Africa", and concludes: "the fact that modernists have gone so far as to erase the venerable Preface of the Roman episcopal consecration to put in its place a liturgical text with links to this schismatic, heretical, decadent sect is a permanent indication of their insufferable arrogance and folly. Let's just remember that the Muslim conquest dates back to the 7th century, while the rite in question dates back to the 4th century at the latest... This elementary observation seems to have escaped them... Strange blindness!
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Post by sdwright on Nov 16, 2023 6:34:13 GMT -5
Intriguing. Any sign of the arguments mentioned here? tradcath.proboards.com/thread/2547/form-1968-paul-episcopal-riteChatGPT is better than DeepL at this stage, I think. (Although I have had it randomly make up text and insert it into translations) I have some French so maybe could help but if ChatGPT is used carefully, it can do the job. Please do let us know if it becomes OCRd.
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Post by Didymus on Nov 19, 2023 17:56:39 GMT -5
Hello Sdwright, I will try to scan the book as soon as possible, I have just arrived from a trip and I haven't had time for anything, I will let you know when it is ready.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 3, 2023 18:56:59 GMT -5
A gentleman and a friend who has been paying attention to this thread has sent me the scanned book. It's half the battle, as we now have the book, but unfortunately it's in French, so I, and probably most on here can't read it. If anyone knows how to take a PDF file and put it in a translator that would be very helpful and appreciated, as I am not sure how to do that. The book is linked HERE
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John Lewis
Full Member
Reviewing the Knowledge
Posts: 372
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Post by John Lewis on Dec 3, 2023 19:35:26 GMT -5
A gentleman and a friend who has been paying attention to this thread has sent me the scanned book. It's half the battle, as we now have the book, but unfortunately it's in French, so I, and probably most on here can't read it. If anyone knows how to take a PDF file and put it in a translator that would be very helpful and appreciated, as I am not sure how to do that. The book is linked HERE sdwright can you assist? The text in the PDF file seems to have been OCR'd and is searchable so with the right tools it will be possible. ChatGPT might be helpful.
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Post by Didymus on Dec 3, 2023 21:35:56 GMT -5
This has saved me a considerable amount of time, thanks to the good friend of Pacelli, I was going to start scanning the book these days and then transfer it to OCR, I use Google OCR, the only problem is that you have to give yourself a lot of time since you can only do it with a single page at a time, if no one has something faster and more feasible I will transform it into PDF in the next few days.
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Post by Didymus on Dec 6, 2023 14:23:56 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I attach the book by Father Olivier Rioult, unfortunately this was the best I could do to transcribe it, I took the time to leave all the phrases in Bold as they come in the book and order the texts, but when translating it into English Everything has been messed up again and some words seem to have been distorted, so I recommend that you do a reading by looking at the original book digitized in French and if there is any error you will be able to read the original book and know what it is saying. I speak Spanish so I don't know how many errors there may be, so I ask that if anyone is interested they can help make the text look better since it takes time and I don't have that right now. I attach the 2 transcribed versions, the French one (it is identical to the original book) and the English version translated with Google (there will surely be errors and disorder in the text). PS: I could not transform the file into PDF because the bold and all the original formatting of the book are erased. If someone can do all this and make it much clearer, it will do us a great favor. However, I think that reading can be done without no problem. Frances Rioult.docx (987.13 KB) English Rioult.docx (888.04 KB)
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