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Post by Andrew on Jan 20, 2018 17:26:38 GMT -5
There is an elephant in the room in this whole debate. Personally, I consider the points in "Where is ......" to be spot on. The "fringe tradition" is as INPEFESS argues from a theological and even cannon law perspective is also "spot on" However this fringe tradition is the only place throughout the world in which you will find true catholic families. For I am sorry all Eastern Catholics- where are the children? A Ruthanian or Ukranian family with more than 5 kids is a rarety and a normal family of ten is WHERE????I know the argument of knowing individual circumstances, etc. etc. YADA YADA, Where are the big families?
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 20, 2018 19:48:54 GMT -5
The loss in numbers in the american Byzantine rites is due to demographics and the dispersion of ethnic communitys. Americans accross the board are not breeding. I had five and dont contracept...so God stopped children in my marriage not me.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 20, 2018 20:50:13 GMT -5
The loss in numbers in the american Byzantine rites is due to demographics and the dispersion of ethnic communitys. Americans accross the board are not breeding. I had five and dont contracept...so God stopped children in my marriage not me. Probably should be a new thread and I apologize for it but you or me or this person or that family is irrelavent overall. For centuries even during war or plagues, catholics were known for there overall large families. It was completely evident. It was part of being catholic. Just because one mother is barren and another family has health problems after 2 children and can't have more did nothing to skew the overall numbers of a catholic parish. A pew a family was the testament and PROOF of a catholic parish. PERIOD. It is the equivalent of a abbot opening up a Benedictine monastery and than saying we are stopping looking at candidates for vocations after 2 profesesed monks and one novice. That monastery or that parish's catholicism is definetely in question. Benedictines are to have twelve professed monks and than can open another house. It is the bishop or the priests duty,Duty, DUTY, to say to the parish the same. WHERE ARE YOUR CHILDREN? Again, no problem in western traditional circles. Despite everything else, in all their areas of worship there are 1) an old couple.2) a young couple with 2 kids. 3) a family of eight. 4) another family of eight. 5) There is a family of fourteen, and another with twelve. Repeat and repeat and repeat. A TESTAMENT to the faith. Where are the large families in Glendale? Armenians are supposed to want to keep up their numbers and tradition. Where are the large families in Newton Mass with the beautiful Melchites. Toronto with the Maronites, heck How bout Lebanon, Egypt Coptics. No testament of children in large numbers. DISGRACE. It is a shame and a sham. You want to be considered a traditional parish - Show the baptised children in Catholic numbers. IN my humble opinion, it would be the first thing said by a legitimate pope.
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Post by Clotilde on Jan 20, 2018 20:54:11 GMT -5
There is an elephant in the room in this whole debate. Personally, I consider the points in "Where is ......" to be spot on. The "fringe tradition" is as INPEFESS argues from a theological and even cannon law perspective is also "spot on" However this fringe tradition is the only place throughout the world in which you will find true catholic families. For I am sorry all Eastern Catholics- where are the children? A Ruthanian or Ukranian family with more than 5 kids is a rarety and a normal family of ten is WHERE????I know the argument of knowing individual circumstances, etc. etc. YADA YADA, Where are the big families? I have traveled to a few rites when I've been on the road. My family was normally the smallest, save those just starting out. As for those parishes Where I've attended the Eastern rites, they proportionally have the same or more children than any trad chapel that I've been to. I've also been to traditionalist chapels where I am the youngest person save my own children. However, you should really avoid being THAT GUY that judges the spiritual health and faith of a situation based on large families of ten. I guarantee you that when you see a family of five, they have either had complications, multiple miscarriages, and even stillborn.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 20, 2018 23:20:55 GMT -5
There is an elephant in the room in this whole debate. Personally, I consider the points in "Where is ......" to be spot on. The "fringe tradition" is as INPEFESS argues from a theological and even cannon law perspective is also "spot on" However this fringe tradition is the only place throughout the world in which you will find true catholic families. For I am sorry all Eastern Catholics- where are the children? A Ruthanian or Ukranian family with more than 5 kids is a rarety and a normal family of ten is WHERE????I know the argument of knowing individual circumstances, etc. etc. YADA YADA, Where are the big families? I have traveled to a few rites when I've been on the road. My family was normally the smallest, save those just starting out. As for those parishes Where I've attended the Eastern rites, they proportionally have the same or more children than any trad chapel that I've been to. I've also been to traditionalist chapels where I am the youngest person save my own children. However, you should really avoid being THAT GUY that judges the spiritual health and faith of a situation based on large families of ten. I guarantee you that when you see a family of five, they have either had complications, multiple miscarriages, and even stillborn. Fair enough, but it is a factor. We are considering parishes, heck even an eparchy at large . By no means is the individual circumstance in question. Sorry but families of 5 are not the norm in any trad parish,maybe in the east. Precisely my point. Boy THOSE GUYS. Hundreds of families reflect a mindset that big families are not necessary in catholicism.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 21, 2018 7:31:15 GMT -5
Frankly this will right itself when God intervenes....the society is so flooded with filth and degradation since vat2 that its probebly a small grace for the time being. Its like a Chernobyl of sin and there is no where to escape the deadly "radiation". I wouldve loved to have had 10 kids...God has not blessed me with more.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2018 9:37:49 GMT -5
Frankly this will right itself when God intervenes....the society is so flooded with filth and degradation since vat2 that its probebly a small grace for the time being. Its like a Chernobyl of sin and there is no where to escape the deadly "radiation". I wouldve loved to have had 10 kids...God has not blessed me with more. Thank you so much for seeing it as a problem and saying that large families are a blessing. It is not just about breeding it is about obeying the church in propagating and educating. You are always saying it is the hierarchy, it is the clergy that gave us this mess. But showing forth large catholic families(for those who can)(which would be the majority NOT the minority)is a place where only the lay people can actually show this most excellent part of the faith. Children I believe are the greatest blessing and I certainly hope God intervenes and rights this. That being said ,I must give a shout out to the Malabar rite in India who at least tries. BTW, the Russian orthodox are beginning to make the Eastern catholics look bad(we can't let that happen can we?) However traditional western catholics are keeping up with the muslims and deserve praise which is why I posted this.
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Deleted
Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 10:08:40 GMT -5
The loss in numbers in the american Byzantine rites is due to demographics and the dispersion of ethnic communitys. Americans accross the board are not breeding. I had five and dont contracept...so God stopped children in my marriage not me. Probably should be a new thread and I apologize for it but you or me or this person or that family is irrelavent overall. For centuries even during war or plagues, catholics were known for there overall large families. It was completely evident. It was part of being catholic. Just because one mother is barren and another family has health problems after 2 children and can't have more did nothing to skew the overall numbers of a catholic parish. A pew a family was the testament and PROOF of a catholic parish. PERIOD. It is the equivalent of a abbot opening up a Benedictine monastery and than saying we are stopping looking at candidates for vocations after 2 profesesed monks and one novice. That monastery or that parish's catholicism is definetely in question. Benedictines are to have twelve professed monks and than can open another house. It is the bishop or the priests duty,Duty, DUTY, to say to the parish the same. WHERE ARE YOUR CHILDREN? Again, no problem in western traditional circles. Despite everything else, in all their areas of worship there are 1) an old couple.2) a young couple with 2 kids. 3) a family of eight. 4) another family of eight. 5) There is a family of fourteen, and another with twelve. Repeat and repeat and repeat. A TESTAMENT to the faith. Where are the large families in Glendale? Armenians are supposed to want to keep up their numbers and tradition. Where are the large families in Newton Mass with the beautiful Melchites. Toronto with the Maronites, heck How bout Lebanon, Egypt Coptics. No testament of children in large numbers. DISGRACE. It is a shame and a sham. You want to be considered a traditional parish - Show the baptised children in Catholic numbers. IN my humble opinion, it would be the first thing said by a legitimate pope. Andrew you are spot on! This comment and the previous one, spot on! I am the youngest of 9 kids! My parents were born in the 30's and therefore raised under the pre-Vatican II church. My mom and dad are both the youngest of 8. So just within my mom and dad's side, imagine the family reunion's! I have so many first and second and now third cousins it is amazing! Those days are gone. Some days I wonder if this is the true reason the U.S. will always have and allow mass migration? If you look at Mexico and many of the Latin American countries, while the family sizes have dropped some, they are by and large still having big families. One way to skew our falling birth rates in the U.S. is to backload it with migrants. Yes, this could go on to be another thread, but probably a very controversial one. So stopping here, your point is well taken and well stated.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 21, 2018 10:39:20 GMT -5
It is the hierarchy's fault because the generations have not been properly imbued by their Pastors. Were large American Catholic families the norm in 1940?
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2018 11:01:36 GMT -5
It is the hierchys fault because the generations have not been properly imbued by their Pastors. Were large American Catholic Familys the norm in 1940? compared to today? Really? Here is a funny, poignant , and great story if someone has any appreciation for the beauty of a large family. No doubt it is a (had to be there) but nevertheless fantastic an illustrates the point. My friend who has a small family of 7 kids was having a dinner guest come in from out of town and he made some pretence of having to run some errands and if he would traipse around with. He waited until around dinner time and took him to the XXXX family of 18, the invited him in and introduced him to the clan by names. Next it was on to the YYYY another family of 18(same thing) with special emphasis on the 3 sets of twins. Next the ZZZZ family of 16, another of 16, two of 14 and three of 12. Yes the man caught on to what he was doing and got a kick out of it but only Tridendine catholics make this a remote possibility.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2018 11:04:08 GMT -5
Heading to Mass, It seems clear I must pray today for ALL catholic families, young, old, large, small, and every thing in between from Mongolia to California
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 21, 2018 12:08:17 GMT -5
It is the hierchys fault because the generations have not been properly imbued by their Pastors. Were large American Catholic Familys the norm in 1940? compared to today? Really? Here is a funny, poignant , and great story if someone has any appreciation for the beauty of a large family. No doubt it is a (had to be there) but nevertheless fantastic an illustrates the point. My friend who has a small family of 7 kids was having a dinner guest come in from out of town and he made some pretence of having to run some errands and if he would traipse around with. He waited until around dinner time and took him to the XXXX family of 18, the invited him in and introduced him to the clan by names. Next it was on to the YYYY another family of 18(same thing) with special emphasis on the 3 sets of twins. Next the ZZZZ family of 16, another of 16, two of 14 and three of 12. Yes the man caught on to what he was doing and got a kick out of it but only Tridendine catholics make this a remote possibility. I was asking I wasn't being sarcastic. So you blame the people when By your own recollection Catholic families were as they should be in 1940...so what happened? Did the people rebel...did they go WHOO HOO no more kids YEAH! No WHAT HAPPENED WAS AN ENTIRE GENERATION WAS MISLED BY WOLVES in SHEEPS CLOTHING. You put way too much responsibility on the sheep.(not that they dont have some but you assert full responsibility) I reject that narrative.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 21, 2018 12:10:17 GMT -5
And stop implying that members here don't appreciate the beauty of a large family!
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Post by Clotilde on Jan 21, 2018 12:50:28 GMT -5
And stop implying that members here don't appreciate the beauty of a large family! I have yet to hear a traditionalist that didn't praise large families. However, I have also seen them, in action, do everything to ostracize large families. The absolute, most awful people I've ever met in my life towards myself and my children have been fellow Catholics at the Latin mass. The East totally has a leg up on the West with "let the children come unto Me."
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2018 13:08:40 GMT -5
compared to today? Really? Here is a funny, poignant , and great story if someone has any appreciation for the beauty of a large family. No doubt it is a (had to be there) but nevertheless fantastic an illustrates the point. My friend who has a small family of 7 kids was having a dinner guest come in from out of town and he made some pretence of having to run some errands and if he would traipse around with. He waited until around dinner time and took him to the XXXX family of 18, the invited him in and introduced him to the clan by names. Next it was on to the YYYY another family of 18(same thing) with special emphasis on the 3 sets of twins. Next the ZZZZ family of 16, another of 16, two of 14 and three of 12. Yes the man caught on to what he was doing and got a kick out of it but only Tridendine catholics make this a remote possibility. I was asking; I wasn't being sarcastic. So you blame the people when, by your own recollection, Catholic families were as they should be in 1940...so what happened? Did the people rebel...did they go WHOO HOO no more kids YEAH! No. WHAT HAPPENED WAS AN ENTIRE GENERATION WAS MISLED BY WOLVES in SHEEPS CLOTHING. You put way too much responsibility on the sheep. (Not that they don't have some, but you assert full responsibility) I reject that narrative. Ok; maybe you're right about hierarchy; no problem.
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