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Post by Pacelli on Jun 6, 2017 18:07:40 GMT -5
I am putting this out there for all who are knowledable about the latest Sede bishop/priests statistics. It would be nice to get a tally:
I will post some starting numbers, if anyone has any direct knowledge, please let us know.
1: CMRI: 25 ?
2: Dolan/Cekada group: 7?
3. Sanborn group: 5?
4. Morello group: ?
5. Trento?
6. Mater Boni Consilii Institute: ?
7. Independent/Unaffiliated: ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 19:03:11 GMT -5
SSPV isn't SVist, but based upon positive doubt surrounding the status of the papacy--impinging moral obligations upon our consciences on the one hand while the absence of the Church's authoritative declaration forbidding us from declaring SVism as though we were that authority on the other--the SSPV doesn't acknowledge the post-conciliar papacy's divine authority until that doubt is removed and all the conditions necessary to establish their papacies as dogmatic facts are present. In this sense they are more sede-agnostic than SVist, though they are often lumped together with SVists because they reject all communion with the Novus Ordo and do not proclaim the post-conciliar popes to be true Popes, even in the Canon. I don't know if that counts, but if it does, they have 15, 16 this summer.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 6, 2017 19:11:55 GMT -5
SSPV isn't SVist, but based upon positive doubt surrounding the status of the papacy--impinging moral obligations upon our consciences on the one hand while the absence of the Church's authoritative declaration forbidding us from declaring SVism as though we were that authority on the other--the SSPV doesn't acknowledge the post-conciliar papacy's divine authority until that doubt is removed and all the conditions necessary to establish their papacies as dogmatic facts are present. In this sense they are more sede-agnostic than SVist, though they are often lumped together with SVists because they reject all communion with the Novus Ordo and do not proclaim the post-conciliar popes to be true Popes, even in the Canon. I don't know if that counts, but if it does, they have 15, 16 this summer. Good point, I wasn't sure whether to add them in, but I think it makes sense to do that. Among sedevacantist s there is also a split between "Bellarmine" pure Sedevacantists, and Guerardarian "Material-Formal" adherents, but I also lumped them all together for convenience.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 19:35:14 GMT -5
Pacelli - Since I am a novice, would you mind explaining what the difference is between "Bellarmine" and "Guerardarian" Sedevacantists?? Thanks.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 6, 2017 21:13:35 GMT -5
Pacelli - Since I am a novice, would you mind explaining what the difference is between "Bellarmine" and "Guerardarian" Sedevacantists?? Thanks. Veronica, I am sure Pacelli will give a nice definition for you but you reminded me of a thread from the Bellarmine forums on the matter. What I would draw your attention to are the posts by John Daly. Here
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 7, 2017 13:02:42 GMT -5
Pacelli - Since I am a novice, would you mind explaining what the difference is between "Bellarmine" and "Guerardarian" Sedevacantists?? Thanks. The "Material-Formal" thesis was developed by Fr. Guerard des Lauriers, to deal with the problem of apostolic succession as applied to sedevacantism. He posited that the papal claimants were material successors but not able to be formal successors due to the obstacle, which was their lack of Faith. I think he meant well, but in my opinion what he created was a mess, the position is a novelty, and is not grounded in traditional Catholic theology. To make matters worse, this position is today held by many who are dug into this view, with no apparent way of helping them out of it. When an office is vacant, it is vacant. The person who does not hold the office, but has assumed the office is a usurper. His presence does not in any way continue the succession, not even materially. He has no relationship with the office, other than the fact that he is usurping it. It is true that if a heretical antipope had a radical conversion, and became a Catholic, and if the Roman clergy and hierarchy continued to accept his claim, he would by that become Pope by acclamation. In the time prior to this, however, the man was nothing but a usurper, his unlawful possession of the office did not continue the succession, he was a thief and a robber.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 15, 2017 10:58:50 GMT -5
The usurper descriptor is in my opinion the most accurate and usefull term for Bergoglio....if we could all think of what is going on as usurpation...we could find common actions and opinions on what can and needs to be done.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 18, 2017 10:37:20 GMT -5
I have put together a list of all bishops and priests who are part of sedevacantist groups and also all independent bishops and priests in the US and Canada. I think the list is at least close to accurate and up to date. If anyone notices that I forgot a priest or if a priest belongs in a different category, let me know and I will fix it. If you don't want your name used, just PM me, and it will be kept confidential.
FYI: by naming these bishops and priests, I am giving the readers of this forum raw data, I am not saying that all of these men are properly ordained as priests or for bishops that they are truly consecrated as bishops. In regards to many of these bishops and priests, there is little publicly known about them, or where their orders come from.
Bp. Sanborn's group:
Bp. Donald Sanborn Fr. Nicolás E. Desposito Fr. Joseph Selway Fr. Oscar Saavedra Fr. Germán Fliess Fr. Philip Eldracher Fr. Federico Palma
Bp. Dolan's group:
Bp. Daniel Dolan Fr. Anthony Cekada Fr. Julian Larrabee Fr. Charles McGuire Fr. Stephen McKenna Fr. Vili Lehtoranta Fr. Carlos Ercoli
St. Louis, King of France group: Fr. Emilio Fattore Fr. Mauricio Zarate
Company of Jesus and Mary (Bp. Morello's Group) Bp. Andres Morello Fr. Adan Rodriguez Barbosa
Willing Shepherds group: Fr. Anthony Paul Quigley, OP
Syon Abbey Dom Francis Edward, Abbot Fr. Francis Nugent
Society of the Virgin Mary (SVM), (Bishop Taylor's group)
Fr. W. Craig Hosch SVM Bp. Patrick Taylor Fr. William Rauh Fr. Matthias Heppeland Fr. Christopher Spray
Priestly Society Christ the king, SSCR, (Bishop Sebastian's group)
Bp. Thomas Sebastian, Fr. A Marie, OSB, SSCR Fr. Matthew Howard SSCR
Independent & Sedevacantist
Fr. Thomas Zapp Fr. Eugene Berry Fr. Daniel Daniel Ahern Bp. Robert Neville Fr. Joseph Collins (Lefebvre) Fr. Roberto Mardones (Carmona) Fr. M.E. Morrison Bp. Paul Petko Fr. Bernard OFM Fr. Joseph OFM Fr. Peter Lemay Fr. Joseph Bachtiger Fr. Leo Carley Fr. Bernard G. Hall Bp. Markus Ramolla Fr. Louis Campbell Fr. James Thielen Fr. Kevin Vaillencourt (no longer functioning as priest)
Independent (not sure if sedevacantist)
Fr. Bernard Champagne Fr. Jesé Milagrosa Fr. John Evangelista Fr. Gabriel Tetherow Bp. M. Bruno, OFM Conv Fr. Anselm Marie O.S.B. Fr. Anton Thai Trinh Fr. Joseph Noonan, OFM Fr. Ted Bradley Fr. Gerald Kasik Fr. Bernard Colussy, OFM Fr. M. Gabriel Ward Bp. Neal Webster ( Feeneyite) Fr. Matthew Howard Fr. Courtney Krier Fr. James Dolan Fr. James Wright Fr. Marshal Roberts Fr. Gregory Safreed Bp. William H. Greene, OSA Fr. Francis Miller, OFM Fr. Ronald Brown Fr. Anthony Leonardo Fr. George McLaughlin, CSSp Fr. Chester Przybl Fr. Samuel Waters Fr. Ronald Ringrose Fr. Juan Ortiz Fr. Louis Montelogno Fr. R. Pensenstadler Fr. Gregory Safreed Fr. Raymond Olinger Fr. Emilio Fattore Fr. Gavin Bitzer Fr. Jerome Verdick Fr. Neville Monteiro Bp. Frank Slupski Fr. M. Pierre SBbS Fr. Morel Fr. M. Eugene Fr. Morgan Fr. Terence Finegan Fr. Lawrence Palma Fr. Ray Steichen SDB Fr. Patrick Perez Fr. Ted Bradley Fr. Pierre Roy Fr. Peter Fortin Fr. Jason Richardson Fr. James Kosek Fr. Bernard Diamond Fr. Paul Andrade Fr. John Hogan
Indpendent - Not Sedevacantist
Bp. Terrence Fulham Fr. Joseph Pfieffer Fr. David Hewko Fr. Richard Voigt Fr. P Girourd Bp. Zendejas
CMRI
Bp. Mark Pivarunas Fr. Ephrem Cordova Fr. Gregory Drahman Fr. Gerard McKee Fr. Dominic Radecki Fr. Benedict Hughes Fr. Bernard Welp Fr. Francisco Radecki Fr. Brendan Hughes Fr. Nino Molina Fr. Gabriel Lavery Fr. James McGilloway Fr. Casimir Puskorius Fr. Anthony Short
Work With CMRI
Fr. Michael Oswalt Fr. Louis Jurado Fr. Leon Speroni, OFM Cap. Fr. Michael Sautner, OSB Fr. John Trough Fr. Michael J. Anaya Fr. Carlos Borja Fr. Robert Letourneau Fr. Christopher Gronenthal Fr. Julian Gilchrist
SSPV
Bp. Kelly Bp. Santay Fr. Jenkins Fr. Mroczka Fr. Skierka (Sr.) Fr. Greenwell Fr. Baumberger Fr. Skierka (Jr.) Fr. Carroll Fr. Selway Fr. Newman Fr. Curatolo (sp?) Fr. Veitkas Fr. Krug Rev. Fonz (sp?) (...in a couple months)
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 18, 2017 10:40:02 GMT -5
Presuming the list is up to date, I count 74 confirmed sedevacantist bishops or priests for the U.S and Canada.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 12:48:10 GMT -5
With the SSPV, there is...
Bp. Kelly Bp. Santay Fr. Jenkins Fr. Mroczka (sp?) Fr. Skierka (Sr.) Fr. Greenwell Fr. Baumberger Fr. Skierka (Jr.) Fr. Carroll Fr. Selway Fr. Newman Fr. Curatolo (sp?) Fr. Veitkas Fr. Krug Rev. Fonz (sp?) (...in a couple months)
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Jun 19, 2017 19:57:30 GMT -5
With the SSPV, there is... Bp. Kelly Bp. Santay Fr. Jenkins Fr. Mroczka (sp?) Fr. Skierka (Sr.) Fr. Greenwell Fr. Baumberger Fr. Skierka (Jr.) Fr. Carroll Fr. Selway Fr. Newman Fr. Curatolo (sp?) Fr. Veitkas Fr. Krug Rev. Fonz (sp?) (...in a couple months) Isn't there also a Fr. Buckley?
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Post by zebtax on Jun 20, 2017 17:30:18 GMT -5
Father Matthias Heppel and Father Christopher Spray Independent through Bishop Taylor
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 20, 2017 18:14:35 GMT -5
Updated, thank you Inpefess and Zebtax.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 23:21:43 GMT -5
With the SSPV, there is... Bp. Kelly Bp. Santay Fr. Jenkins Fr. Mroczka (sp?) Fr. Skierka (Sr.) Fr. Greenwell Fr. Baumberger Fr. Skierka (Jr.) Fr. Carroll Fr. Selway Fr. Newman Fr. Curatolo (sp?) Fr. Veitkas Fr. Krug Rev. Fonz (sp?) (...in a couple months) Isn't there also a Fr. Buckley? Ha! Thanks, you're right. I grew up going to camp with Fr. Buckley every year and somehow forgot to mention him in the list. You have a good memory!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 21, 2017 4:45:06 GMT -5
So what is the official status of all these "Priests"?
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