Is there a Pope in exile?

[Deleted]

I'm new to this forum this year, so please excuse me if this is a topic that doesn't fit here or has been hashed out already.  For around 11 years now I have been looking into what happened to the Church.  For a time, I was pretty certain that we had a series of anti-popes, but only pretty certain.  I moved my family to a conservative NO Parish and sat tight.  When Bergoglio was elected I was and am positive that this man is not the Catholic Pope and just wanted to flee from him, as I felt he was very evil.  I went to SSPX and now that +Fellay is about to take a personal prelature from this man, I'm feeling like this SSPX was set up to catch the overflow from Vat II.   To capture those Catholics that just wouldn't go along with the program.  So, I'm here at SSPX and I'm pretty upset with what seems to be about to unfold.  I've started reading a bunch of things on NOW.  I've been through this all before but I feel like I'm always taking one step forward and two steps back with my understanding of this nightmare situation.  I don't have the time to be spending on this.  I feel guilty that I am neglecting my true vocation and duties to my family (like the pigsty that is my kids' playroom) but I also feel like there is a spiritual freight train bearing down upon us and I need to do all I can to protect the souls of my family.  So, I'm reading and I'm writing.  I'm feeling like I don't have the time to read and sift through all I need to.  I'm reaching out to you all to ask if there is a Pope in exile.  Is there anything to this Siri thesis and a Pope Gregorious XVII?  Did he provide for the continuation of the legitimate Papacy?  Is there a hierarchy right now in exile?  Do the sedevacantist Priests and Bishops in the US have apostolic succession?  What is the Thuc line?  Do they still exist?  I'm pretty sure the Sedevacantist Bishops in the US just left the SSPX so they have nothing to do with the Thuc line or Cardinal Siri?  I feel wary about SSPX now: it's origins, it's purpose.  I read a few months ago that Archbishop Lefebvre was consecrated by a Freemason but dismissed this as an unhappy coincidence.  Well, what if it isn't?  Anyway,  if anyone can offer information, point me in the right direction, stear me away from sources that will end up being completely bogus, anything that will hasten my search for some answers here, I can't tell you how much I'd appreciate it, right now.  I'm Catholic and I'm very uncomfortable being adrift without a Pope.  I just really don't want to fall into error and I especially don't want to stear my family into error and away from the Church.

[Voxxkowalski]

Erica...firstly rest in comfort and knowledge and know your Love for Christ is your first line of defense. Dont be afraid. The confusion all around is the same for many of us and it is not just you.
Lets get things straight firstly. Your first duty is to God as a layperson...to believe...hope and trust Him.
But like St Peter Matthew 14:29-31 we can get distracted. I find many many trads fall into despair simply because they begin to engage a false sense of responsibility to fix or otherwise come up with a solution for the crisis. As laity I assure you we hold no such responsibility. The souls of your family will be protected by placing them into Our Lady's hands...through prayer and devotion to her. Your motherly duties to your family comes before any situation in Rome or the greater trad catholic worlds. At my forum I have a thread warning Traditional Catholic Groups (perhaps you saw it):tradcath.proboards.com/thread/132/trad-catholic-groups-warned

This is important to me because NONE of these groups have the complete answer or solution. They all are of great benefit in many ways..but they are merely corks in the holes of our boat we find ourselves in. Your main duty to God and your family and YOURSELF is to simply remain Catholic. As far as getting the sacraments and the Mass (liturgy) This forum strongly asserts going to the Ukrainian Catholic Churches if you can find them. In our excellent Catholic resources page: tradcath.proboards.com/board/20/catholic-resources
You will find a listing as accurate as weve been able to source for the Ukrainian Parishes in the USA. If this is not a possibility then I recommend simply continue with SSPX. God is not a monster...Catholicism is not Islam...you and I are mere sheep...wandering a dangerous pasture...but Our Great Shepherd and Lord Jesus has not left us without recourse and protection...even though we have been scattered. There caves and alcoves all over His Pasture where we may find safety as the wolves run among us. Your focus right now should simply be to simplify your questions and needs to a few things and let all the other swirling controversys blow over your head like dark clouds in a windy thunderstorm.
Simplify to this:
Rosary-Liturgy(sacraments)-Community with good people. Raise your kids. Wait on God. Thats it...that is all. Getting caught up in all the rest are like the waves that St Peter saw that made him take his eyes of Christ. Hope this helps...Im glad you joined and I hope we can be part of the community with good people we all should seek from one another. We are all friends here...this is a very low drama and controversy forum (by design and it will stay that way). My forum is for all simply faithful Catholics who are just doing their best.
The Holy Family Pray for you!

[Deleted]

Oh my dear, that TC groups be warned hits the nail on the head! Everyone is against each other because there is no Pope. Someone has got to be in charge. Thanks for your suggestion about the Ukrainian Church. I'll have to look into this as I am totally unfamiliar but I did look at your directory and there is a Church an hour and a half from us. This is a Catholic Church? What about Bergoglio, they don't recognize the Pope? How can they be Catholic w/out the Pope? Excuse my ignorance, I will look into it. I can't see the future but I have a bad feeling about this personal prelature. I read an article in Chiesa Viva by Gary Giuffre who presents some circumstantial evidence that Nuclear threats were used against the Church at the 1958 Conclave and at the time of Vat II. I looked up this writer Gary Giuffre and found sites that seemed to be trashing him as a wolf in sheeps clothing. I've never even heard his name before. The idea makes perfect sense though. If the world has a nuclear arsenal and the Catholic Church stands in the way of the adversary's plan to take as many souls as he can, why on Earth wouldn't that arsenal be brought to bear? Nuclear annihilation is a threat that I hadn't considered. It is a threat that I can see keeping even a holy and God fearing man silent and impotent. I've been at a loss as to how this all could have happened and this terrifying prospect is the only one I can see that explains this total catastrophe. I understand your feelings about just being a good Catholic and I don't think that I can accomplish anything towards saving our Holy Mother Church from what has befallen Her but I have to tell ya...I have children to whom I am passing the Catholic faith. What's happening here is not nothing, it is bigger than anything I can imagine. This will reach my Shire and I feel quite an urgent need to be alert and prepared. Other than my nuclear family, my entire family has lost the faith and they are living really Godless really bad selfish and destructive lives. I hear this same story from so many other Catholics. This is dramatic, losing brothers and mothers and fathers, children. We had Christmas this year and last, just my husband and children and I faked being so happy so enthusiastically but my heart felt smashed when I thought of all the Chistmas's I spent when I was little w/Grandparents, Great Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles, Cousins. Things are very wrong and it is hard to ignore. My Grandparents were Catholics and raised Catholic families and the next two generations of their families lost the faith. The generation that my brothers are raising, frightens me to contemplate, not even Baptized. I just hope to be able to give my kids some rational explanation of what is going on the Church so that they persevere in the Faith. I don't want them to see their religion collapse around them like my parents and aunts and uncles did post VII.

[Clotilde]

Whoa! Erica, I need paragraphs. It makes it too difficult to break each individual question and point down for discussion.

First, I want to caution you against placing your trust in traditionalist writers. Even when they are right. They don't have permission to publish from the Church and have no oversight. They can say whatever they want and it isn't only in their own name, not that of the Church.

Secondly, most such writings are not supported by proof, and not just any proof but proof that will stand up to scrutiny. This is further complicated by the fact that sometimes many of these writers have no professional training or any sort of higher education which would give them credibility or expertise in these areas. In most cases, they are privy to the same facts and information as the rest of us. 

I'm not saying that these things cannot or should not be discussed but that we must be realistic about other people and the current situation. 

I have more to say but my time is limited. More later. Just take it easy and try not to over think it.

[Voxxkowalski]

Simplicity Erica...be still and know.

Luke 10:41-42
Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things:But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

[Pacelli]

Erica wrote:

Thanks for your suggestion about the Ukrainian Church. I'll have to look into this as I am totally unfamiliar but I did look at your directory and there is a Church an hour and a half from us. This is a Catholic Church? What about Bergoglio, they don't recognize the Pope? How can they be Catholic w/out the Pope?

I have a lot of thoughts on your excellent post, and I will post more soon, but I wanted to respond to your question. 

Yes, all churches on that directory are Catholic Churches of the Ukrainian rite.  Yes, they recognize Bergoglio, but in practice, they operate independently from him.   

The eastern rite Catholics, unlike the Roman Rite are not in practice directly governed by the Pope.  They are ruled over by the Patriarchs of their rites, and their laws and appointments are approved by their individual synods of each rite.  

Due to this, the eastern rites have been to some extent insulated from the crisis of Vatican II. Some, like the Maronites, have embraced the revolution, and are a disfigured mess, while other eastern rites, by and large, have sailed along through this crisis without being comporomised as a whole.  

I can attest to the fact that the Ukrainian rite has clergy that have most certainly kept the Faith, and have not compromised in any way with the heresies and errors of the Conciliar sect.  I can also say, that from the statements of others that some of the Ukrainian clerics are at least to some extent compromised, so if you go to them, you will have to evaluate the situation.  

The Ukrainian Liturgy itself is intact, so you as a Catholic are free to go to it.  If the priest is a heretic or is liberal, you will have to make a judgment on whether it is a cause of scandal to you or your children as to whether you should go there.  Catholics are permitted to attend the masses of undeclared heretics.  

There are 23 separate Catholic eastern rites, and the focus on this forum has been on only one, the Ukrainian rite, first off because they are very big in the United State with hundreds of churches but secondly because they are still intact even after 50 years of the crisis, with their magnificent and ancient Liturgy, and many, if not most, of their clerics, as far as I can tell, visibly and publicly believing the Catholic Faith.  

Regarding the other eastern rites, many are still fairly isolated to their homelands, so we don't know too much about them.  Some, like the Ukrainians, have a presence in the United States, such as the Melkite, Ruthenian, Armenian, and Maronite rites.  Among these others, I am not overly impressed with them, most especially with the Maronites, they are for the most part gone, as far as I can tell. If you want to go and investigate any of these others, I would urge caution, from what I can tell they seem to have drifted further afield towards the direction of the sect. I am not saying that this is case everywhere with them, and some clerics may still be good, but from personal experience and from what others tell me, these other eastern rites, at least the ones I mentioned are to some extent compromised.

[Voxxkowalski]

A point to mention is the Ukrainians have little love for the orthoducks as they were persecuted by them for centuries and betrayed by them under Stalin...so on ecumanism they are decidedly cool to it...not completely free..but I feel safely distant.

[micah1199]

I remember reading about Gary Guiffres pope in exile Siri thesis when I was in High School 19 years ago. Heh, time flies!

[kim]

Hi Erica---your story sounds a lot like mine. My priest is in the Thuc line. Thuc was teaching in a sedevacantist seminary in NY in the early 80's when he was basically kidnapped by Novus Ordo Vietnamese Americans (who found him to be an embarrassment to their community.). I personally know the priest who was his assistant at that time. The priest Fr Francis Miller (a seminarian at the time) was drugged and Thuc was fed sugar by these people. Fr Miller doesn't like to talk about the experience but he has recorded his story which I will send.
He is a very holy priest and works at another independent chapel in Lafayette, La. Occasionally he flies out to our chapel in Seattle.
Hold on---let me find the link.

[kim]

I meant to say Fr Francis Miller was a seminarian at the time of the kidnapping and he assisted archbishop Thuc as he was old and diabetic.

traditionalcatholicsermons.org/index_files/FatimaConferences.htm

Scroll down to Fatima conferences 2014--Fr. Francis Miller.

[Banned snake]

The "Siri Thesis" has holes but it is just as probable as anything else. Gary's (I can't spell his last name) article has interesting data and time-lines.  Also, the trash talkers who attack his character have been known to be slanderous among other things... so, grain of salt.

Even if his theory is wrong it wouldn't be a sin to believe it. Does that mean we have a pope in exile? It's possible, but how could you identify said exiled pope?  One of the many problems about having an unclear and mostly defunct / apostate hierarchy is that anyone can claim to be Catholic and anyone can give a song and a dance and claim to be "pope".  There's no one to prove them wrong and no authoritative paper trail.

There are less than a few charlatans out there taking advantage of this situation.  Its a free lunch and the poor souls who are in shock over the situation of the Church rarely see the wolves coming.  If they demand money from you and act all shady, or any other such red-flag behavior you should run for the hills.  To be fair some may not be wolves at all but poor fools who are very confused.

Hang in there. Waking up to the disaster of our situation today is like ripping off a healed over bandage, or cutting off a finger. It hurts a lot at first but you get use to it.  Try not to freak out.

Your concern over Lefebre being "ordained" by a high level Mason is a valid concern shared by some learned people. Most people who bash this position seem to be defending something personal.  Thuc has issues as well and so does Schuckardt. Its a mixed bag and there is scandal all around and really hard decisions to make here.

I have found that the best approach for my family (although many would not agree, even though scripture is quite clear in Galatians) is to avoid heretics/schismatics and all organizations that hold hands with them. That would include the SSPX, SSPV, LMNOP etc. and other groups that compromise with or worse, unite themselves with apostate Rome. That would also include (until proven otherwise) all Eastern Rites in union with Rome, which today appears to be all but one group in Europe. Don't get excited about the group in Europe though as they're also infected with Modernism.

Things that have worked for me and other Catholics that I know (that you have complete control over) is to bring down as much of God's grace as you can by cutting out as much sin (ESPECIALLY venial sin) out of your life as possible TODAY and to build a strong prayer routine.

Commonly Overlooked Sins to Root Out Of Your Life: (sin robs you of current grace and blocks the flow of new graces)
1. Hollywood, Music industry and TV. Nothing good comes from these things. Blasphemy, immorality, immodesty, openly mortally sinful "hero's", anti-Catholic themes, always anti-Tradition, anti-family, the list goes on. Its worth mentioning that the early Christians were actually forbidden to go to the theatres in Rome. Welcome to Neo-Rome and Neo-Pagan Hollywood. Cut this source of filth out of your life and your life will change for the better.

2. Foul Language & breaking the 2nd Commandment: Using the Lord's name in vain when upset, scared etc. is a sin against the 2nd commandment, this includes referring to God in irritation. Nasty habit, dangerous habit. Foul language is also an indirect sin against this same commandment, not to mention it many times leads to impure images in the mind. Saying our Lord's name as an ejaculatory prayer is NOT in vain. Do this often. (500 days indulgence)

3. Inappropriate Relationships & Sins of the MIND: Whether its a too friendly relationship with a member of the opposite sex, or a too familiar friendship with a non-Catholic, or the influence of a bad Catholic who is a public sinner... cut these relationships out of your life, or at least minimize them to necessary exposure. Mental sins are inappropriate immodest thoughts/curiosities not resisted and/or angry violent thoughts against someone who cuts you off on the highway for example. People easily forget that you can commit a mortal sin in your mind without lifting a finger. RESIST! & pray for assistance from God when assailed with tempting mental sins.

4. Attachment to worldly and borderline inappropriate things: Even when lawful, the things of the world can hold your disordered love and rob you of grace. Love of fancy food, ballet, sports, politics, horses, gardening, science, literature, etc. The first commandment given by Christ is "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment." (Matt 22:37,38) and again "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God". Put God first and the graces will flow.

5. Working on Sunday: This is another one people just don't seem to care about anymore. It matters! Don't do it! If you simply cannot avoid it because of military work, or nursing, police etc, minimize it as much as possible by rotating Sunday shifts and keep the day as holy as as you can to honor God even while working. We should offer all our work up to God anyway as it is He who has commanded us to work.

Prayer Routine Outline to get you started (if you don't already have a consistent routine, MAKE ONE)
1. Pray the Rosary every day, never fail. The full 15 decades is ideal and meditate as clearly as you can on each mystery. It helps when you first start to build this devotion to look into scripture, find the mysteries and write a line for each Hail Mary, to help build a set of pictures in your mind until you can picture them all without any aid.

2. Make the Heroic Act of Charity for the Holy Souls suffering in Purgatory. If you've never heard of this, look it up. Then do ejaculation indulgences all through out the day, such as but not limited to "Jesus Mary Joseph" (7 years indulgence every time you say it). "Thy will be done" (500 days), "Oh God come to my assistance, Oh Lord make haste to help me" (500 days), "From all sin deliver me O Lord" (500 days). Help the souls in Purgatory and they help you back.

3. Make the total consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary (St. Louis de Montfort) and Read his books "Secret of the Rosary", "True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary", "The Love of Eternal Wisdom". Free online.  Read from an OLD Catholic spiritual book for at least 15 min EVERY day.

4. Pray every morning the moment you awake at minimum: Morning offering to the Sacred Heart, Acts of Faith, Hope, Charity, Contrition, The Angelus, Magnificat.  Pray every night before bed at minimum: De Profundis, Examine of Conscience, Confiteor, The Angelus, Spiritual Communion (morning & night).

5. Daily Spiritual Communion and Confession to a trusted Catholic: According to St. Thomas, you can confess your sins to a lay Catholic in the absence of a priest. It is not a sacrament, but a sacramental, similar to holywater or the Rosary. It is not enough to receive communion, but it will keep you out of hell (if communion was available there would be a priest to confess to). You must have the intention of confessing to an actual priest as soon as one becomes available. This is one step easier than "perfect contrition" alone. Perfect contrition is a gift from God if you can achieve it. Confessing to another person can arise shame and compassion in you for penance and healing. The person cannot give you absolution as only a priest can do that, but they may assist you in achieving contrition. 

The above (if you haven't already done most of them) will supercharge your ability to receive and cooperate with God's grace. This is your direct link to salvation in these dark and confusing times.

Peace in Christ,
M

[micah1199]

Michael, where did you get the Saint Thomas idea that we can confess sins to a person in absence of a priest? I have never heard or read this?

[Pacelli]

Michael wrote:

I have found that the best approach for my family (although many would not agree, even though scripture is quite clear in Galatians) is to avoid heretics/schismatics and all organizations that hold hands with them. That would include the SSPX, SSPV, LMNOP etc. and other groups that compromise with or worse, unite themselves with apostate Rome. That would also include (until proven otherwise) all Eastern Rites in union with Rome, which today appears to be all but one group in Europe. Don't get excited about the group in Europe though as they're also infected with Modernism.

This is a very vague statement.  While I agree that you and your family have no obligation to petition the sacraments from priests under censure, your reasoning makes no sense.  

1.  The term, "hold hands," is not a Catholic term in theology or canon law.  

2.  What you are not dealing with is whether the priests in question are indeed heretics or have left the Church.

3.  Groups cannot be considered as heretical, unless such groups are named as such, their founders are named and thereby those who willfully follow such named founders are then presumed guilty, or lastly they as a group are known for having willfully separated from the Church and have formed a sect.  All of this remains unproved in our situation.

4.  Without such conditions as named in #3, we are forced to treat people individually, who enjoy innocence unless the opposite is demonstrated on a case by case basis.  

5.  Another way of saying it is this:  unless a Catholic has knowingly joined a sect, and unless there are grounds to make a personal judgment against a particular person of heresy, apostasy or schism, prior to the judgment of the Church, then the person must be presumed to be a member of the Catholic Church, and if such a person holds an office, then that fact must also be presumed.  

[Pacelli]

Apr 29, 2017 6:31:03 GMT -5 micah1199 said:

Michael, where did you get the Saint Thomas idea that we can confess sins to a person in absence of a priest? I have never heard or read this?

This is a disputed point in theology, and I would highly recommend to you to avoid making a lay confession unless you are in the state of mortal sin and are completely unable to find a priest, and do not foresee being able to find one.  

I do not believe that a lay confession is permissible in most situations, as there are plenty of priests available with faculties to hear confessions.  In a danger of death, any priest, even a schismatic can hear one's confession.  

If you ever do make a lay confession based on such a scenario, I would urge you to re-confess to an authorized priest as soon as you are able to find one.  

[Voxxkowalski]

That would also include (until proven otherwise) all Eastern Rites in union with Rome, which today appears to be all but one group in Europe. Don't get excited about the group in Europe though as they're also infected with Modernism.

Micheal S...keep making blanket calumnys and detractions like this one and you will find yourself on the other side of the fence. (1st warning)