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Post by Clotilde on Jun 4, 2017 10:31:51 GMT -5
Prayer and suffering, yes!
If I may offer another suggestion and this is how I try to conduct myself: Refuse to be divided and do not divide yourself. Maintain unity and peace with all Catholics, don't worry about judging those around you. If a judgement must be made, it should be about those claiming authority over you, without resorting to blanket condemnations and conjecture. Do not take on authority that is not yours and do not hand it over to those who have no claim to such.
I think Vox hit the nail on the head: we are not the ones who are going to solve this. Once you realize that, and really take it to heart you can be at peace with all Catholics.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 4, 2017 11:50:31 GMT -5
Pacelli this is my point alltogether...if you dont have to sever ties with a freemasonic and heretic secular government why couldnt you go to an una cum? I see your point, and your analogy does make sense here, but the anology will not hold up perfectly, that's all I was getting at. For example, if a true and certain pope is elected and recognized by the Church, those obstinately remaining in communion with Francis the Fake will be objectively schismatic. So, the situation may shift, and unlike a citizen who still remains in an evil government, Catholics will at some point have to abandon Francis and embrace their lawful Pope once he comes. So yes, your anology makes sense now, but the underlying principle it operates on is not universally applied, making it a risk to use it. As you said on Te Deum, it's oranges and grapefruit, closely related but not perefectly the same.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 4, 2017 12:01:14 GMT -5
I think we simply need to unite in prayer and long suffering. There is no fighting this as a group. God is the one who will fix this...I think alot of the problem is this proud attitude these groups have thinking they wil fix this. I agree, the sooner Catholics realize that there is nothing we can do other than pray, do penance, and try to support each other during this time, the better. God is in control, He can fix this mess any time He chooses, either directly or through the remaining hierarchy and the lawful clerics of Rome.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 14:55:32 GMT -5
When a Trad group or certain individuals want to pass judgement or condemn me for attending a Mass una cum, I am hitting my feet. I am not going back. I am not a glutton for undue punishment or to subject myself to various individuals unfounded pernicious condemnations. Various groups and individuals committing such acts have no authority to do so - they are usurpers. To remain silent, or do nothing in light of their error would mean I am complacent and, in essence, complicit and condoning their wrongdoing and error.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 4, 2017 16:08:12 GMT -5
When a Trad group or certain individuals want to pass judgement or condemn me for attending a Mass una cum, I am hitting my feet. I am not going back. I am not a glutton for undue punishment or to subject myself to various individuals unfounded pernicious condemnations. Various groups and individuals committing such acts have no authority to do so - they are usurpers. To do nothing in light of their error would mean I am complacent and, in essence, condoning their wrongdoing and error. I have said for many years the only way to keep traditionalists and priests in check, without a higher authority to make complaint, is to use your feet, your talents, resources, and wallet. This means that given then issue, a response equal to dealing with the issue can be given which will send a message. A person could at first cut back his donations, he could limit his time to coming and going for the sacraments, he could stop contributing a skill or particular help, and if the situation is beyond those measures, he can walk out the door. This is the only way to admonish a particular group of priests or people. Words seem to fail.
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Post by kim on Jun 16, 2017 7:34:00 GMT -5
So if you go to an SSPX or an Eastern Catholic Church, do you have to hide your sedevacantism? And if you become a member of say an Eastern Catholic Church , do you tithe there knowing that some of your money may be going back to apostate Rome?
I chose to go to an independent chapel (Dolan/Samborn) because I wanted to be upfront about my sedevacantism and also because I wanted to be conditionally baptized (Novus Ordo had very easily accepted my S Baptist baptism--the intent of which is not the washing away of sins but merely a symbolic act)) and I wanted to be conditionally confirmed (I was confirmed Novus Ordo.). I don't think any of that would have been possible in an Eastern rite Catholic Church as they likely would have accepted the Novus Ordo's ruling on both of those. .
Nonetheless, as an independent thinker, I don't believe it is wrong to attend an una cum Mass (though I know that is not what my priest believes.). The point is to receive a valid Eucharist; however if a non-una cum is available, I'd rather be there since that is what I believe.
Clearly I do not have a Catholic name, but no one ever questioned me about that. You will run into rude nutcases in all walks of life.
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Post by micah1199 on Jun 16, 2017 10:52:17 GMT -5
I can't bring myself in conscious to go to a mass una cum a heretic. It would be easier for me if I could, but I can't. I don't judge others for their mass choice, but I won't do it.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 16, 2017 11:08:29 GMT -5
I can't bring myself in conscious to go to a mass una cum a heretic. It would be easier for me if I could, but I can't. I don't judge others for their mass choice, but I won't do it. Which is a perfectly reasonable position.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 16, 2017 11:09:56 GMT -5
I can't bring myself in conscious to go to a mass una cum a heretic. It would be easier for me if I could, but I can't. I don't judge others for their mass choice, but I won't do it. Which is a perfectly reasonable position. What would you say to 2vermont who isnt so reasonable? Or Father Cekada or B Dolan?
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 16, 2017 11:17:07 GMT -5
So if you go to an SSPX or an Eastern Catholic Church, do you have to hide your sedevacantism? And if you become a member of say an Eastern Catholic Church , do you tithe there knowing that some of your money may be going back to apostate Rome? I chose to go to an independent chapel (Dolan/Samborn) because I wanted to be upfront about my sedevacantism and also because I wanted to be conditionally baptized (Novus Ordo had very easily accepted my S Baptist baptism--the intent of which is not the washing away of sins but merely a symbolic act)) and I wanted to be conditionally confirmed (I was confirmed Novus Ordo.). I don't think any of that would have been possible in an Eastern rite Catholic Church as they likely would have accepted the Novus Ordo's ruling on both of those. . Nonetheless, as an independent thinker, I don't believe it is wrong to attend an una cum Mass (though I know that is not what my priest believes.). The point is to receive a valid Eucharist; however if a non-una cum is available, I'd rather be there since that is what I believe. Clearly I do not have a Catholic name, but no one ever questioned me about that. You will run into rude nutcases in all walks of life. Kim, You don't have to hide it, but at the same time, you owe no one at the Church, with the exception of the priest, and that only if he directly asks you, answers about the matter. It's up to you what you may say or not say. Sedevacantism is a response, nothing more, it's not part of the doctrine of the Catholic Faith. When I go to sedevacantist chapels, I don't talk about sedevacantism, I just go to mass, pray, receive Holy Communion, and then I am on my way. I may say hi to some people I know, but that's about it. If I stay after mass for a potluck, I never discuss theology or Francis. It's just not the time or place to get into complex matters. So, using that as a standard, why would I want to get into complex theology with the eastern Catholics or at the SSPX. There is just no need to do that, your only goal in going to Mass or Divine Liturgy is to please God, to win graces for yourself, to receive Holy Communion, with the ultimate goal of saving your soul. Regarding your donations, your regular donations go only to the parish, nowhere else. There are separate collections that go to the eparchy, (eastern diocese), and only Peter's Pence goes to Rome.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 16, 2017 11:24:47 GMT -5
I can't bring myself in conscious to go to a mass una cum a heretic. It would be easier for me if I could, but I can't. I don't judge others for their mass choice, but I won't do it. Fair enough. I say what I say defensively, I have no reason to go on the offense against people who say what you say. My problem is only with those who say it is sinful or objectively schismatic to go to mass said by a Catholic priest una cum with an undeclared heretic. I say the same about the home-aloners, they are also following their conscience, and will not go to any mass until the Church is back to normal. I know they are wrong, but so long as they are not aggressive about getting people to folow them, I leave them in peace.
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 16, 2017 11:35:00 GMT -5
So if you go to an SSPX or an Eastern Catholic Church, do you have to hide your sedevacantism? And if you become a member of say an Eastern Catholic Church , do you tithe there knowing that some of your money may be going back to apostate Rome? I chose to go to an independent chapel (Dolan/Samborn) because I wanted to be upfront about my sedevacantism and also because I wanted to be conditionally baptized (Novus Ordo had very easily accepted my S Baptist baptism--the intent of which is not the washing away of sins but merely a symbolic act)) and I wanted to be conditionally confirmed (I was confirmed Novus Ordo.). I don't think any of that would have been possible in an Eastern rite Catholic Church as they likely would have accepted the Novus Ordo's ruling on both of those. . Nonetheless, as an independent thinker, I don't believe it is wrong to attend an una cum Mass (though I know that is not what my priest believes.). The point is to receive a valid Eucharist; however if a non-una cum is available, I'd rather be there since that is what I believe. Clearly I do not have a Catholic name, but no one ever questioned me about that. You will run into rude nutcases in all walks of life. I suppose that depends on how you view yourself. I view myself as a Catholic, I never hide my Catholicism. I am a Catholic that holds the sedevacantist position. I have no intention at SSPX, Eastern Catholic, or wherever else to make converts to a position that I hold. Therefore, it does not come up. The Eastern rites I have encountered are structured so that their money stays within their parishes. From my understanding only special appeals go elsewhere, and one is not required to give. Everyone has a choice regarding where to go, or to go at all, for the sacraments. Some have more choices than others, some have one, and some people have none. The point is that everyone is striving to make the best decision possible given their situation, what they know, and their resources. Baptism is a very individual situation, and most people do not have that problem. Some traditionalists get so paranoid that they do request conditional baptism without cause. Others actually need it, but there are lots of solutions. If one did not have any access to a priest, he could still get conditionally baptized. Confirmation is not necessary for salvation. While we would all like to be confirmed, given the nature of the Crisis, it may not always be possible. You hit the nail on the head. Those who attend the places we are discussing for sacraments are just trying to do their best in the Crisis. The graces of the sacraments are more important than Bergoglio or any theological position. There is probably coming a day when none of us will have access to the sacraments and we might wish we had taken all of our good options when we had the opportunity. As always, I believe in avoiding chapels with certain issues, but they are all on a provisional basis until the situation is resolved or amends made. That is a different topic I 'spose.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 18, 2017 12:43:30 GMT -5
John Lane gave a good reply to this question some years ago.
Mr. Lane was asked:
Mr. Lane responded:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 0:23:47 GMT -5
You have no Idea...Im up to my neck on fb with sede who came right out and said he prefers sede as a descriptor instead of Catholic! That is all too common unfortunately. People who haven't experienced anything except living in this crisis forget that one day it will end. Making a private judgement a core part of your identity is not a prudent thing to do. It's much harder to part with your identity than it is to part with a private judgement.
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