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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 23:21:30 GMT -5
I have been told by various different people that by attending a Latin Mass where the Una Cum prayer is used that I am, therefore, in agreement with Francis and condoning everything he says and does, including Vatican II.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 13, 2016 13:41:14 GMT -5
I have been told by various different people that by attending a Latin Mass where the Una Cum prayer is used that I am, therefore, in agreement with Francis and condoning everything he says and does, including Vatican II. I could refer you to extensive reading on this subject, but one great article, The Question of Assistance at the Mass of a Priest Who Professes Communion With John Paul II as Pope, will suffice found HERE
I realize the article is dated, but the principles remain the same, just replace John Paul II with Francis. In addition to the article, let me offer a few points for consideration to help navigate this issue: 1. There is a significant difference between a condemned heretic and an uncondemned heretic, the two cannot be equated and must be dealt with separately. 2. There is a significant difference between a known sect, one that either self-identities itself as not being part of the Church, or somehow claims to be part of the Church, but has been in some way condemned by the Holy See, in regards to its doctrines, the condemnation of its leaders, etc. 3. In application of #2, those who are appear to be part of the Conciliar sect, cannot be presumed guilty of being part of the sect, since the sect identifies itself as the Church and the Holy See has not yet identified and condemned it. Until then, every single bishop, priest and layperson must be dealt with on a case by case basis, and even in that our judgements about any person bind no one else. 4. There is no law forbidding Catholics from partaking the sacraments from uncondemned heretics. In reality, the theologians who have spoken on it, have defended a Catholics right to partake of the sacraments from uncondemned heretics. So even if you determine that priest X is a heretic, you could still partake of the sacraments from him. 5. These principles do not cover validity. If you have doubts about the validity of a priest, such as those ordained through the Pauline rite, or by a bishop who was consecrated by the Pauline rite, then I would certainly avoid the doubtful sacraments of such a priest. 6. Just because it may be licit, does not mean that you are obliged. 7. The una cum prayer is a prayer, it does not mean that you agree that such a man is Pope or approve his acts. In normal times, it would show a unity with the Pope, but the mentioning of an undeclared antipope when there is no legitimate Pope is not a schismatic act.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 19:52:43 GMT -5
Thanks Pacelli for the Article! I have taken all kinds of flack for attending Mass in "union" with Francis. I have attended regularly a Mass by a pre-Vatican II Priest ordained in the 1950's and in the same Diocese where he was granted faculties. The Priest has been sick for the last few months and I called a certain chapel in my area to inquire what their Mass times were. The person at the chapel who answered the phone told me I could not receive Communion there as I was going to a Mass in "union" with Francis. I told them I never heard of such a thing and tried to explain that the Priest who presided at the Mass was pre-Vatican II and that since Francis wasn't a Pope saying or naming him as Pope wasn't going to make him a Pope. I also told the person that I only through the Grace of God found my home to the True Roman Catholic Church two yrs ago. I got nowhere. I was shocked to say the least. I was then told that they refuse Communion to people who go to Thuc Priests as well. (I had ran across the name Thuc, but didn't have any knowledge of him). I asked why and was told something about Bishop Thuc ordaining a noted homosexual and some others who were questionable (by this time my head was reeling and I was in shock all the more). I was told that there were a lot of independent churches "out there" that were not "good". As a result of this exchange I started to research Bishop Thuc. I then researched Bishop Mendez . My conclusion was that it was the "pot calling the kettle black". I have decided the only other Church I will attend will be the Ukranian Church as I know the Priests and Bishops are valid. Thanks again for the article!!
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Nov 13, 2016 21:30:43 GMT -5
Thanks Pacelli for the Article! I have taken all kinds of flack for attending Mass in "union" with Francis. I have attended regularly a Mass by a pre-Vatican II Priest ordained in the 1950's and in the same Diocese where he was granted faculties. The Priest has been sick for the last few months and I called a SSPV chapel in my area to inquire what their Mass times were. The person at the SSPV who answered the phone told me I could not receive Communion there as I was going to a Mass in "union" with Francis. I told them I never heard of such a thing and tried to explain that the Priest who presided at the Mass was pre-Vatican II and that since Francis wasn't a Pope saying or naming him as Pope wasn't going to make him a Pope. I also told the person that I only through the Grace of God found my home to the True Roman Catholic Church two yrs ago. I got nowhere. I was shocked to say the least. I was then told that they refuse Communion to people who go to Thuc Priests as well. (I had ran across the name Thuc, but didn't have any knowledge of him). I asked why and was told something about Bishop Thuc ordaining a noted homosexual and some others who were questionable (by this time my head was reeling and I was in shock all the more). I was told that there were a lot of independent churches "out there" that were not "good". As a result of this exchange I started to research Bishop Thuc. I then researched Bishop Mendez who ordained most of the SSPV. My conclusion was that it was the "pot calling the kettle black". My regular Priest will be returning from sick leave next Sunday. I have decided the only other Church I will attend will be the Ukranian Church as I know the Priests and Bishops are valid. Thanks again for the article!! This is really amazing. I go to sspv chapels. There are a few people who go to sspx on sundays when there isn't mass at the chapel. One family we are good friends with and another I went on a retreat with the wife. the sspv priest has stated as long as the sspx priest is not ordained in the new rite it's okay. I know one family who stopped going to sspx when they saw who they thought was a cardinal at the sspx chapel, but I didn't hear about it firsthand. Also, this year one of the sspv's new seminarians attended sspx exclusively growing up because that was close to his home; no one cared. I know the sspx chapel in st. louis has a new rite ordained priest, so I think they say don't go to that one.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 22:11:49 GMT -5
Thanks Pacelli for the Article! I have taken all kinds of flack for attending Mass in "union" with Francis. I have attended regularly a Mass by a pre-Vatican II Priest ordained in the 1950's and in the same Diocese where he was granted faculties. The Priest has been sick for the last few months and I called a Certain chapel in my area to inquire what their Mass times were. The person at the chapel who answered the phone told me I could not receive Communion there as I was going to a Mass in "union" with Francis. I told them I never heard of such a thing and tried to explain that the Priest who presided at the Mass was pre-Vatican II and that since Francis wasn't a Pope saying or naming him as Pope wasn't going to make him a Pope. I also told the person that I only through the Grace of God found my home to the True Roman Catholic Church two yrs ago. I got nowhere. I was shocked to say the least. I was then told that they refuse Communion to people who go to Thuc Priests as well. (I had ran across the name Thuc, but didn't have any knowledge of him). I asked why and was told something about Bishop Thuc ordaining a noted homosexual and some others who were questionable (by this time my head was reeling and I was in shock all the more). I was told that there were a lot of independent churches "out there" that were not "good". As a result of this exchange I started to research Bishop Thuc. I then researched Bishop Mendez . My conclusion was that it was the "pot calling the kettle black". I have decided the only other Church I will attend will be the Ukranian Church as I know the Priests and Bishops are valid. Thanks again for the article!! This is really amazing. I go to sspv chapels. There are a few people who go to sspx on sundays when there isn't mass at the chapel. One family we are good friends with and another I went on a retreat with the wife. the sspv priest has stated as long as the sspx priest is not ordained in the new rite it's okay. I know one family who stopped going to sspx when they saw who they thought was a cardinal at the sspx chapel, but I didn't hear about it firsthand. Also, this year one of the sspv's new seminarians attended sspx exclusively growing up because that was close to his home; no one cared. I know the sspx chapel in st. louis has a new rite ordained priest, so I think they say don't go to that one. I don't really know much about the SSPX, but I am assuming that they are in "union" with Francis. If so, I don't understand why one chapel has different rules than another. This incident only happened a few weeks ago and I am still reeling from it. However, it is better I was told over the phone that I would be refused Communion than to have had it happen at the Communion rail or in the Church. If the latter would have happened to me, I would have been mortified. I have since learned that the Chapels have had a long standing dispute and the refusing of Communion to the people who attend the Thuc Priests Masses just as the person on the phone told me. There is just so much to learn and sort through in this time of crisis in the Church and I get overwhelmed. This episode with this chapel really overwhelmed me!
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Nov 13, 2016 22:18:35 GMT -5
This is really amazing. I go to sspv chapels. There are a few people who go to sspx on sundays when there isn't mass at the chapel. One family we are good friends with and another I went on a retreat with the wife. the sspv priest has stated as long as the sspx priest is not ordained in the new rite it's okay. I know one family who stopped going to sspx when they saw who they thought was a cardinal at the sspx chapel, but I didn't hear about it firsthand. Also, this year one of the sspv's new seminarians attended sspx exclusively growing up because that was close to his home; no one cared. I know the sspx chapel in st. louis has a new rite ordained priest, so I think they say don't go to that one. I don't really know much about the SSPX, but I am assuming that they are in "union" with Francis. If so, I don't understand why one SSPV chapel has different rules than another. This incident only happened a few weeks ago and I am still reeling from it. However, it is better I was told over the phone that I would be refused Communion than to have had it happen at the Communion rail or in the Church. If the latter would have happened to me, I would have been mortified. I have since learned that the SSPV has had a long standing dispute and the refusing of Communion to the people who attend the Thuc Priests Masses just as the person on the phone told me. There is just so much to learn and sort through in this time of crisis in the Church and I get overwhelmed. This episode with the SSPV really overwhelmed me! I can't really help you. :shrug: I only know my own personal knowledge. I did personally hear one SSPV priest say you can go to SSPX as long as they are not ordained in the new rite. One priest told me he thought the SSPX was "playing with fire." And again, I know people who go to both.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 23:47:01 GMT -5
I don't really know much about the SSPX, but I am assuming that they are in "union" with Francis. If so, I don't understand why one chapel has different rules than another. This incident only happened a few weeks ago and I am still reeling from it. However, it is better I was told over the phone that I would be refused Communion than to have had it happen at the Communion rail or in the Church. If the latter would have happened to me, I would have been mortified. I have since learned that the SSPV has had a long standing dispute and the refusing of Communion to the people who attend the Thuc Priests Masses just as the person on the phone told me. There is just so much to learn and sort through in this time of crisis in the Church and I get overwhelmed. This episode with the Chapel really overwhelmed me! I can't really help you. :shrug: I only know my own personal knowledge. I did personally hear one SSPV priest say you can go to SSPX as long as they are not ordained in the new rite. One priest told me he thought the SSPX was "playing with fire." And again, I know people who go to both. I'm evidentially being "shrugged" off. I will say no more on the subject except to say that since this happened to me, being refused communion because I go to a Mass in "union" with Francis, that the same has happened to others as well. I'm sure I'm not the first. I feel very, very bad for any and all of those people who have been denied Communion by this specific Chapel or any other Chapel for attending a Mass in "Union" with Francis. Then again, perhaps they did me a great favor as I have since realized.
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Nov 14, 2016 7:49:25 GMT -5
I can't really help you. :shrug: I only know my own personal knowledge. I did personally hear one SSPV priest say you can go to SSPX as long as they are not ordained in the new rite. One priest told me he thought the SSPX was "playing with fire." And again, I know people who go to both. I'm evidentially being "shrugged" off. I will say no more on the subject except to say that since this happened to me, being refused communion because I go to a Mass in "union" with Francis, that the same has happened to others as well. I'm sure I'm not the first. I feel very, very bad for any and all of those people who have been denied Communion by this specific Chapel or any other Chapel for attending a Mass in "Union" with Francis. Then again, perhaps they did me a great favor as I have since realized. I thought of something. Were you going to a diocesan church? The sspv doesn't like that as I believe the fssp and icksp priest are ordained in the new rite, or their bishops may be consecrated in the new rite. So even if your priest was old, like you said, were other priests allowed to come in to the same church to do mass? Then the hosts could be mixed. If this is the case then, yes, The sspv does say don't go to the indult or masses in connection with the diocese. But you can go to SSPX as long as the priest is ordained in the old rite. And don't worry about the :shrug: It's not as bad as you think:)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 8:35:28 GMT -5
I'm evidentially being "shrugged" off. I will say no more on the subject except to say that since this happened to me, being refused communion because I go to a Mass in "union" with Francis, that the same has happened to others as well. I'm sure I'm not the first. I feel very, very bad for any and all of those people who have been denied Communion by this specific Chapel or any other Chapel for attending a Mass in "Union" with Francis. Then again, perhaps they did me a great favor as I have since realized. I thought of something. Were you going to a diocesan church? The sspv doesn't like that as I believe the fssp and icksp priest are ordained in the new rite, or their bishops may be consecrated in the new rite. So even if your priest was old, like you said, were other priests allowed to come in to the same church to do mass? Then the hosts could be mixed. If this is the case then, yes, The sspv does say don't go to the indult or masses in connection with the diocese. But you can go to SSPX as long as the priest is ordained in the old rite. And don't worry about the :shrug: It's not as bad as you think:) Yes, the church is in the Diocese. The only time the Church has a young Priest in to say the Latin Mass is when the old Priest is sick or on vacation and then I don't go there. The old Priest has been sick for a few months and I haven't been going there as a young Priest is saying the Mass. That is why I called the Chapel to begin with, to go there until my Priest was well. I told the person that my Priest was pre-Vatican II and was ill and that I wouldn't go to the Church when a young Priest was filling in for him. The only thing I was told by the person was that the Mass was in " Union" with Francis and that was the reason given for the Holy Communion being refused. Oh well, it is over and done with now. Live and learn!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 14, 2016 12:28:57 GMT -5
No one who refuses sacraments to laity are Catholic.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 14, 2016 12:46:16 GMT -5
Thanks Pacelli for the Article! I have taken all kinds of flack for attending Mass in "union" with Francis. I have attended regularly a Mass by a pre-Vatican II Priest ordained in the 1950's and in the same Diocese where he was granted faculties. The Priest has been sick for the last few months and I called a SSPV chapel in my area to inquire what their Mass times were. The person at the SSPV who answered the phone told me I could not receive Communion there as I was going to a Mass in "union" with Francis. I told them I never heard of such a thing and tried to explain that the Priest who presided at the Mass was pre-Vatican II and that since Francis wasn't a Pope saying or naming him as Pope wasn't going to make him a Pope. I also told the person that I only through the Grace of God found my home to the True Roman Catholic Church two yrs ago. I got nowhere. I was shocked to say the least. I was then told that they refuse Communion to people who go to Thuc Priests as well. (I had ran across the name Thuc, but didn't have any knowledge of him). I asked why and was told something about Bishop Thuc ordaining a noted homosexual and some others who were questionable (by this time my head was reeling and I was in shock all the more). I was told that there were a lot of independent churches "out there" that were not "good". As a result of this exchange I started to research Bishop Thuc. I then researched Bishop Mendez who ordained most of the SSPV. My conclusion was that it was the "pot calling the kettle black". My regular Priest will be returning from sick leave next Sunday. I have decided the only other Church I will attend will be the Ukranian Church as I know the Priests and Bishops are valid. Thanks again for the article!! I am sorry for you to have to deal with this nonsense. Many of the "traditional" Roman rite priests do not know their place, and are usurpers of the power of the hierarchy. They elevate their judgment on unsettled matters to a binding judgment, and then follow it with sanctions. In my opinion, it is generally best to avoid such priests. Personally, I would go to the old priest you described as long as God allows him to keep going. It is a real blessing to have such a priest in your life, as he was given approved training and has a lawful commission from the Church, which is something that the "traditional" priests lack on both counts. In regards to the Ukrainian rite, their orders are valid, and all of the Ukrainian priests I have known for the last few decades have kept the Faith. I have only known one that was liberal, but I would not go so far as to think him a heretic. Another poster on this forum has described a Ukrainian parish priest that sounded heretical, so even there, it's good to keep your eyes and ears open, but a true least as it stands now, it seems to me that the experience described by the other poster is an anomaly in the Ukrainian rite. As a general rule, the Ukrainians are safe, so I am happy that you had found them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 14:02:59 GMT -5
I have another predicament which I am requesting help with. I don't know if this should be under another thread? I have been told because the Church where I attend the Latin Mass says the Novus Ordo as well as the Latin Mass in the Church, that one shouldn't go there because the Novus Ordo is said in there. My thoughts on the matter has been, as I don't have knowledge on the subject, is that I am not responsible for what goes on in the Church. I have been told that the Novus Ordo has defiled the Church. (?). Also, I have been told that since the pre-Vatican II Priest says the Novus Ordo as well as the Latin Mass that he is, therefore, a heretic, and that by attending Mass said by him, I am, therefore, a heretic. My argument has been, as I don't have knowledge on the matter, is that I am not responsible for what the Priest does when he says the Novus Ordo. That is on him, not me. He is a valid Priest, who has valid faculties and that is what concerns me. Is my thinking ok in these regards or am I off the wall?
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Nov 14, 2016 15:48:07 GMT -5
No one who refuses sacraments to laity are Catholic. And worshipping bread is what?
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Nov 14, 2016 15:53:56 GMT -5
I thought of something. Were you going to a diocesan church? The sspv doesn't like that as I believe the fssp and icksp priest are ordained in the new rite, or their bishops may be consecrated in the new rite. So even if your priest was old, like you said, were other priests allowed to come in to the same church to do mass? Then the hosts could be mixed. If this is the case then, yes, The sspv does say don't go to the indult or masses in connection with the diocese. But you can go to SSPX as long as the priest is ordained in the old rite. And don't worry about the :shrug: It's not as bad as you think:) Yes, the church is in the Diocese. The only time the Church has a young Priest in to say the Latin Mass is when the old Priest is sick or on vacation and then I don't go there. The old Priest has been sick for a few months and I haven't been going there as a young Priest is saying the Mass. That is why I called the SSPV to begin with, to go there until my Priest was well. I told the SSPV person that my Priest was pre-Vatican II and was ill and that I wouldn't go to the Church when a young Priest was filling in for him. The only thing I was told by the SSPV person was that the Mass was in " Union" with Francis and that was the reason given for the Holy Communion being refused. Oh well, it is over and done with now. Live and learn! Truly the name of the game at this point.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 14, 2016 15:58:39 GMT -5
No one who refuses sacraments to laity are Catholic. And worshipping bread is what? I obviously refer to valid Sacraments
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