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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 19, 2016 8:22:44 GMT -5
Pacelli,@mithrandyland My son came home from college unannounced last night. Hes 24...good kid smart. His visit was a kind of blessing as he actually wanted to talk to his father. (Those of you with teens and young adults understand the jist of that comment) It seems to get a mechanical engineering degree one needs to take a course called philosophy of math. My son seems to have been run over by a "paradigm shift"...it seems he is coming to the realization that this universe isnt exactly what the worldly science says it is. He came home shaken in his young mans conceit to ask me basically Pilate's question...what is truth. I want commentary on truth from the doctors and saints that is accessable to a young man. Now I dont want to give the impression that your faithful admin didnt have an answer....you can imagine my delight to actually be asked to share my "wisdom" ....BUT I was caught a little flat footed by the surprise visit. His most specific query was...how can we KNOW something is true...because it has dawned on him it all comes down eventually to taking someone elses word for it. That has him disturbed...Im happy to see his deeper processess awakening...but I really would like to offer some more. Any thoughts?
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Post by EricH on Oct 19, 2016 10:44:00 GMT -5
Pacelli , mithrandylanMy son came home from college unannounced last night. Hes 24...good kid smart. His visit was a kind of blessing as he actually wanted to talk to his father. (Those of you with teens and young adults understand the jist of that comment) It seems to get a mechanical engineering degree one needs to take a course called philosophy of math. My son seems to have been run over by a "paradigm shift"...it seems he is coming to the realization that this universe isnt exactly what the worldly science says it is. He came home shaken in his young mans conceit to ask me basically Pilate's question...what is truth. I want commentary on truth from the doctors and saints that is accessable to a young man. Now I dont want to give the impression that your faithful admin didnt have an answer....you can imagine my delight to actually be asked to share my "wisdom" ....BUT I was caught a little flat footed by the surprise visit. His most specific query was...how can we KNOW something is true...because it has dawned on him it all comes down eventually to taking someone elses word for it. That has him disturbed...Im happy to see his deeper processes awakening...but I really would like to offer some more. Any thoughts? Here's an article by Orestes Brownson that answers the question pretty well ( link). It's a difficult read but worth the effort. The part that's most relevant is pp. 492-512 ( Brownson_Liberalism-and-Catholicity-excerpt.pdf (782.25 KB)). Here are a few key passages:
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 19, 2016 12:33:25 GMT -5
Thank you eric thats s pretty tough read for a noob truth seeker...but I will excerpt the less ornery prose.
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Post by EricH on Oct 19, 2016 14:17:38 GMT -5
Thank you eric thats s pretty tough read for a noob truth seeker...but I will excerpt the less ornery prose. You're welcome. I don't know where to find a solid discussion of certitude that's easy to read. Cardinal Mercier's chapter on criteriology ( link) is longer and less clear than the excerpts from Brownson. There is some good material in Fr. Clarke's book on Logic ( link), especially pp. 29-139.
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Post by mithrandylan on Oct 19, 2016 18:16:54 GMT -5
Voxx,
Just saw this.
Without getting long-winded, it's unclear to me whether your son is seeking information on metaphysical truth, or on the practical/moral nature of certitude. What Eric provided from Brownsen is excellent, though more related to certitude.
Is your son a good Catholic? By which I mean, does he take the faith seriously and approach natural matters with the faith "taken for granted?" If so, then I can't do much better than what Eric provided.
If, on the other hand, he's like me.... and is coming to a realization that what he hasn't taken all that seriously (the faith) might have some answers for him, and is looking for a philosophical approach to the nature of truth as such-- i.e., his question of "how do we know anything" includes such basic questions as "how do we know God exists?" and whatnot, have you or him read Aristotle for Everybody by Mortimer Adler? It's an excellent "beginner's" look at how we know things-- as basic as a carrot, as glorious as God. It would do wonders for laying down a succinct and easy to understand foundation.
I know you weren't looking for a book recommendation, but it comes to mind as a work that helped me immensely when I reverted. When I say it's "basic" I don't mean that it's dumb. What I mean is that it will jolt anyone out of the coma of intellectual complacency that modern academia is so intent on imposing on us. It will show a person what basic, human reason is, and how it can be used to identify self-evident truths.
And really, it's just a prelude to Aquinas, who takes the philosophy of Aristotle and makes it Christian.
Anyways, maybe if you are able to elaborate a little and clarify I can either reinforce or retract my recommendation, maybe even replace it, or post an excerpt, etc.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 19, 2016 18:39:00 GMT -5
No a book recomondation is most welcome ...sorry to say he is a nominal Catholic...up to this point. I see this as a huge opportunity to get through how important the faith is to understanding this wicked world. I get the impression he has reached that point in his life when hes realizing that this life is like a train ride you cant get off...hes in his last year of college (grades are great)...and real life is stalking him. I am touched that he reached out to me...in fact it is an answer to my prayers.. so...ya..books poems..movies...songs...everthing about certitude and truth...reality. I think hes taken the blue pill.(or was it red??) From the matrix
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 19, 2016 18:45:01 GMT -5
Im very happy about this turn of events actually..but I am rightfully concerned about his state of mind.
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Post by GottmitunsAlex on Oct 19, 2016 19:30:09 GMT -5
Im very happy about this turn of events actually..but I am rightfully concerned about his state of mind. Reason seeks truth. Not relativism or liberalism taught in universities. A very important subject which is all but discarded in universities is logic. They now have mathematical logic which is not the same. Yes, kids know formulas, can quantify and compute data. However, they do not know what to do with that data. That is how the powers at be want the college grads to be: Qualified workers. Society today is interested in knowing how much a career pays. Careers based on humanities majors are not in the big bucks ladder, except probably lawyers. Teachers get good benefits. However since universities and colleges are neck-deep in liberalism, truth is...relative and subjective. We all know all truths comes from God. These are uber-dark times. The whole system has changed and has employed liberalism. From the kinder to post-graduate studies. I can deduce that without the grace of God no one will seek the Truth. Reason is no longer employed nor being developed in school. I will pray for your son Voxx.
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Post by EricH on Oct 20, 2016 10:57:05 GMT -5
No a book recomondation is most welcome ...sorry to say he is a nominal Catholic...up to this point. I see this as a huge opportunity to get through how important the faith is to understanding this wicked world. I get the impression he has reached that point in his life when hes realizing that this life is like a train ride you cant get off...hes in his last year of college (grades are great)...and real life is stalking him. I am touched that he reached out to me...in fact it is an answer to my prayers.. so...ya..books poems..movies...songs...everthing about certitude and truth...reality. I think hes taken the blue pill.(or was it red??) From the matrix It sounds like you have a good opportunity to talk to him about the train ride that most people are taking, and where it leads. Job, wife, children, vacations & special events every now and then, grandchildren, retirement, .... death. Not that these things are bad in themselves, but without the grace of God and a supernatural motive they profit nothing. To be on the path to Heaven, one must approach life very differently than the world does. I would tell him to be very glad that he has not yet made any huge blunders that will plague him for the rest of his life (assuming he hasn't!), and that most adults would give their right arm, so to speak, to go back to age 24 and make better choices. So he should be very careful and ask for plenty of advice from older and wiser heads before he makes any big decisions. If he can bring himself to hear and accept the truth that wisdom comes from experience and that 24-year-olds, who necessarily lack experience, also lack wisdom, then he will be in a position to avoid a lot of trouble. A few thoughts on the truth question: 1. For some people, studying deep intellectual arguments on religious points is an energizing activity and a source of inspiration to practice virtue. Your son might be, or become, one of them. If so, the need to read something several times and mull it over for a week or two can be a plus, not a minus. 2. It's often much easier to ask a question than to understand the answer to it. Many people reject all religion out of hand because they have a pet question that they insist on having answered first, which they claim that nobody is able to answer. The more logical and practical approach, as a mere mortal, is to not expect to be able to understand everything, and to pray and study to receive whatever truth and goodness God intends for man to receive. To use an analogy, it's more important to get the job done than to understand how the machinery works, whether that be the human body, horse and buggy, automobile, airplane, cell phone, computer, etc. It's nice to understand the machinery, but in most people's experience that does not happen first. 3. Ideally your son's asking about how we know things will kindle in him a desire for knowledge of God in general, and virtue and piety. I would tell him to daily pray the Rosary and read some from a catechism and from an excellent spiritual book (not a so-so one), and leave it to God to bless and enlighten him as and when it suits His divine wisdom. I would suggest the Roman Catechism, and for a spiritual book, one of these (among many other possibilities): St. Francis de Sales: Introduction to the Devout Life
St. Alphonsus Liguori: Sermons, The True Spouse of Jesus ChristThe Spirit of the Cure of Ars, by l'Abbe Monnin The Catechism in Examples, by Rev. D. Chisholm ( vol 1) ( vol 2) ( vol 3) ( vol 4) ( vol 5) I will definitely pray that things turn out well for him.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Oct 21, 2016 4:46:53 GMT -5
Had a discussion with my oldest son who has a minor degree in philosophy and we had a nice discussion on epistimology. Aristotle he says must be understood along side plato. What were the premises of these two?
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Post by jen51 on Oct 21, 2016 13:15:18 GMT -5
I'm not equipped to help here, but I will pray for your son. Seems like he's asking the great questions nearly all serious young men ask.
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Post by RitaMarita on Oct 31, 2016 19:30:36 GMT -5
Just saw this now, Voxx...
How is your son holding up?
The fact that he is asking your advice is a really good sign!
I think that all of us at one point or another in our life stop and ask ourselves "What is Truth?" and "What is my purpose for existing?"
One book that helped me a great deal at a time when I was asking myself these questions was "Growth in Holiness" by Father Faber.
I shall be praying for your son. What is his name?
Please keep us posted!
God bless!
Rita
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 1, 2016 4:53:22 GMT -5
Thank you Rita...You can call him son number two...God knows. I didnt want to share his name. He seems better...or at least much less disturbed about the issue. In the main I told him to be patient...these things reveal themselves.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Nov 1, 2016 4:55:15 GMT -5
And yes I was very happy he sought my opinion....I would give my kids my life if they neded it.
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Post by RitaMarita on Nov 1, 2016 18:25:22 GMT -5
Thank you Rita...You can call him son number two...God knows. I didnt want to share his name. He seems better...or at least much less disturbed about the issue. In the main I told him to be patient...these things reveal themselves. Okay. Makes sense. I understand the need for caution... So, I will just think of him as Voxxson II when I pray for him. ;-) You seem like a good father! Keep it up and may God bless you! :-)
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