John Lewis
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Reviewing the Knowledge
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Post by John Lewis on Mar 16, 2023 3:44:29 GMT -5
I'm hoping Pacelli will help with this thread. I have read within the last year that to found a new sect you need: - A New Constitution
- A New Creed
- New Dogmas
We know that Paul VI altered the Creed of Pius V by removing all condemnations of protestantism and that Vatican II explicitly teaches contrary to the Catholic Church on a variety of topics. We also know that Vatican II altered the Divine Constitution of the Church when it declared that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and that the Pope rules the Church in Union with the Bishops vs the Divine Constitution of the Catholic Church in which the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church and the Pope rules the Church as its supreme head i.e. a monarchical structure.
Q1: Is the above criteria sufficient to determine whether a new sect has been formed? Q2: Do we have sufficient evidence to say that Vatican II taught new Dogmas? Q3: Can we build a case in favour of this position that would be convincing to priests, both traditional and non-traditional worldwide?
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 16, 2023 8:51:56 GMT -5
John, I posted this some years ago, to put on this forum the definition of a sect: Definition of a Sect:You can read the whole thread HERE I put others texts on there as well, including how to determine if a person is actually a member of the sect in question, which is equally as relevant to resolve. As you can see from the definition, there are two kinds of sects, heretical or schismatic, but in both cases, persons form a group that is under unauthorized leadership. As far as the Conciliar church goes, I believe there is no doubt that it is a sect, as it's teachings are not the same as the teaching of the Church, there is a group dedicated to these non-Catholic teachings, and it is governed by unauthorized leadership, even though that fact has not yet been legally recognized. In my opinion, this question of the existence of a sect is the easier one, the bigger question that few have ever tackled is determining who is actually a member of this sect. What I commonly see is assumptions about who is a member, and very rarely any evidence to support the accusation.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Mar 16, 2023 14:51:49 GMT -5
Pacelli, I have seen a different definition that specifically included those criteria, but perhaps it was a definition of what is required to found a new church rather than a sect. I wish that I could find it again. I'll keep searching.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Mar 16, 2023 15:25:21 GMT -5
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John Lewis
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Posts: 371
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Post by John Lewis on Mar 16, 2023 15:26:58 GMT -5
From Lumen Gentum: "Blue: Christ’s true Church Red: the new organization headed by Paul VI, distinct from Christ’s Church (called “the Catholic Church”) Yellow: showing that the two entities are not the same."
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 16, 2023 16:47:58 GMT -5
Pacelli , I have seen a different definition that specifically included those criteria, but perhaps it was a definition of what is required to found a new church rather than a sect. I wish that I could find it again. I'll keep searching. There can't be a new church, only a sect that either separated from the Church directly or a break off from an existing sect. I am speaking only of those who are heretical or schismatic sects of course.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 16, 2023 16:51:22 GMT -5
I don't understand the point you are making with the tweets. I agree and concede that there is a sect in existence that goes by many names, such as "The Conciliar church," ".The Vatican II Church," "The Novus Ordo," etc.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Mar 17, 2023 17:46:31 GMT -5
Ah, well the comment I have heard in the past from Bp Sanborn and other Sede groups is that no-one can find a definitive point where the new sect was founded, however at Vatican II a new juridical structure was established with properties separate to that of the Catholic Church, a new constitution so to speak. Paul VI provided it with a new Creed and new dogmas already condemned by the Catholic Church. Is this not enough to put a time on when the sect was formed i.e. the promulgation of Vatican II and modification of the Pius V creed (whichever came first)?
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 17, 2023 19:47:53 GMT -5
Ah, well the comment I have heard in the past from Bp Sanborn and other Sede groups is that no-one can find a definitive point where the new sect was founded, however at Vatican II a new juridical structure was established with properties separate to that of the Catholic Church, a new constitution so to speak. Paul VI provided it with a new Creed and new dogmas already condemned by the Catholic Church. Is this not enough to put a time on when the sect was formed i.e. the promulgation of Vatican II and modification of the Pius V creed (whichever came first)? I talked to a friend about this years ago, and we both thought that the date of certainty that Paul VI either fell from office, or Catholics could further conclude that he wasn't pope to begin with, would have been November 21, 1964, the date Paul VI officially approved Lumen Gentium. Its hard to say with certainty this date would also serve as a date to mark the birth of the new sect, but it seems reasonable, as this was the date that one could form moral certainty that there was a religious group holding to non-Catholic beliefs under an unauthorized leader.
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John Lewis
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Post by John Lewis on Aug 13, 2023 0:54:02 GMT -5
I think this discussion is very important. A new organisation needs new offices to carry out its programme and many of the long-standing organisations of the Catholic Church were disbanded in favour of new ones, e.g. the Holy Office became the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It seems I'm not the only one to think this. Bp Tisser de Malleris wrote an article on this subject which was published by the Dominicans of Avrille in 2013. This subsequently lead to them breaking relations with the SSPX. It is published here. I will post the entire contents of the article in a new thread.
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