|
Post by wenceslav on Dec 31, 2022 18:51:32 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli,
I want to commend you for your excellent work. I also don’t want to derail this important thread.
My concern is that eastern Catholic eparchies and eastern Catholic priests of whatever rite are liturgically commemorating known schismatics and or heretics like Palamas, Photius, Mark of Ephesus etc. on their particular “Orthodox” feast day. Note that I have no problem with Eastern saints approved during the pontificate of Pius XII - and these had to be shown that they were not in schism.
This issue of liturgically commemorating known schismatics (and members of false sects) in the Divine Liturgy is certainly problematic and continues to grow due to the flawed ecclesiology (I.e. if not heretical ecclesiology - sister Churches) of many clergy in the Eastern Rites. Certainly the prohibition from the Vatican Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith which you quoted above would prohibit a Catholic from attending a Divine Liturgy commemorating for example a “St. Photius”. I am not suggesting that one should red-light an Eastern rite liturgy at all times but should not a Catholic avoid such liturgies on days when these false saints are being commemorated?
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jan 1, 2023 7:15:26 GMT -5
Hi Wenceslav,
This post really needs its own thread as it is not identical to the other thread, and your point is important, and it is a serious problem.
It differs from what the S.C. of Prop. Fide taught Catholics as in that case Rome was dealing with known schismatic sects, and in our present case, we are dealing with either undeclared schismatics or heretics, and/or misguided Catholics who think doing things such as this will help aid the orthodox to return to the Church.
We discussed this years back, and I think Catholics should avoid any feast where these schismatics are venerated, due to the risk of scandal, but I am not certain, that Catholics must avoid the entire eastern rite that is doing this, as many in the eastern rites that do these stupid things, not because they want to sever from Rome, are doing it because they think they are doing something good for bringing the schismatics back.
Interestingly, it has a striking parallel (although not identical) to some Catholics in America the 19th century that believed that by essentially “cleansing" Catholicism of its "offensive" elements, that they would bring the Protestants into the Church.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jan 1, 2023 8:57:50 GMT -5
Anyway, I wanted to say one more point to my post above. I think you and I are in agreement here, so I will sum up what I think about mass avoidance in such situations:
1. In general, it is clear that the mind of the Church is to make it easier to go to mass and receive the sacraments in good conscience.
2. But, it is obvious that a Catholic cannot always do so, and the term being used these days is “red lighting,” a chapel or group. It’s fine to use new terms, but this term, like all newer terms being used these days is left open to ambiguity, which I think you captured in your post.
For example, in this case, if this feast is used, must one avoid it? It seems a good argument can be made. But, some may construe from that that this entire rite itself has defected into a sect and must be avoided. I know you didn’t say that, but some may believe that.
To see what I mean, look at the latest controversy in the SSPX, when the recent split happened with the “resistance” many started urging “red lighting” of the SSPX and many followed this advice. I personally know some that are now “de facto” home aloners, only receiving the sacraments from a specific faction of the “resistance,” all because of this misguided thinking. But, is it true that every priest/chapel must be avoided, or even at at all? Does the proposed deal equal a defection and make the SSPX a schismatic or heretical sect? I think not. I also think that all who advised Catholics to stop attending mass have brought a heavy burden on themselves and will have to answer for this.
Anyway, I am personally reluctant to tell anyone what to do, as first of all I have no authority to do so, but secondly, if they listen to me and I am wrong I take a heavy burden on to myself which I must answer for.
3. So, this is what I think on this matter, Catholics must avoid evil if it is in the rite itself, which is why Catholics in large number fled the Novus Ordo, which is arguably evil, as it is a mangled and disfigured rite that has destroyed the theology of the mass, in the 70’s.
Catholics must avoid being part of any sacrilege such as when some eastern rite Churches were burning wooden spoons that had the precious blood on them during the Covid mess.
Catholics must avoid even other misguided Catholics in the reverence of and celebration of named schismatics or heretics, which I believe is the case in your hypothetical.
There are other scenarios, but anyway, I think we agree on the principles, and I also noticed that you were hesitant to extending the avoidance of such a feast to the complete avoidance of the rite itself, and on that we also agree. I am also hesitant to go further.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 1, 2023 14:51:07 GMT -5
Well the spoon thing is still going on in some stupid parishes.. even masks! (My severly blind mothers parish for instance...I even confronted the Priest politely 2 sundays about it...he said he wishes it would stop too...but I guess hes afraid of the "bishop") As far as feastday Liturgy for the persons mentioned...what if you didnt know a said person was put on the Eastern Calendar? Can you attend...I mean they mention bergoglio at every Liturgy.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jan 1, 2023 17:15:07 GMT -5
Well the spoon thing is still going on in some stupid parishes.. even masks! (My severly blind mothers parish for instance...I even confronted the Priest politely 2 sundays about it...he said he wishes it would stop too...but I guess hes afraid of the "bishop") As far as feastday Liturgy for the persons mentioned...what if you didnt know a said person was put on the Eastern Calendar? Can you attend...I mean they mention bergoglio at every Liturgy. With the exception of one much better educated Ukrainian rite gentleman I know, I doubt anyone at all in the parish I go to sometimes even takes note of the feast day, unless it's a major feast such as Christmas or Easter. So, this would probably only apply to Catholics paying attention.
|
|
|
Post by wenceslav on Jan 1, 2023 19:46:42 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli,
I agree with everything you’ve written above. And, yes, I agree with your comments about red-lighting. I would never suggest that people stop attending an Eastern rite parish except on those days where a schismatic or heretic is commemorated. I am thoroughly SSPX/CMRI so my exposure to the Ukrainian rite is now rather limited (except for comments from extended family members) but I’m personally stunned that the average Ukrainian layperson would be unaware of the feast day. I think a lot of it has to do with getting rid of those neat missals from the 50s and 60s (similar to those in the Latin rite). Now most parishes from what I remember (during my last exposure) only have a generic missal of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom without the specific Kondaks or Troparions of a given feast day. Sad, another victim of the fanatical anti-latinization crowd.
For what it’s worth I was against any deal by the SSPX with the modernists and I did (still do) support the Resistance I.e. Avrille Dominicans etc. however I will not stop going to the SSPX for the Sacraments. I thought about it and even if the SSPX was under the modernists (I would cringe if indeed this happened) , but I would still attend for the Sacraments as long as the priest was validly ordained. So I understand your personal position wrt attendance at a Ukrainian Catholic parish.
Best wishes my friend and a Happy New Year.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Jan 2, 2023 6:02:33 GMT -5
Wenceslav, Happy New Year to you as well!
|
|