QUESTION ABOUT PRIEST
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Post by QUESTION ABOUT PRIEST on Jun 5, 2022 2:43:49 GMT -5
I have a question about father John Derrington ordained by Bishop Patrick Taylor
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QUESTION
Jun 5, 2022 18:11:49 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 5, 2022 18:11:49 GMT -5
I have a question about father John Derrington ordained by Bishop Patrick Taylor |
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 5, 2022 18:12:33 GMT -5
This is a new aquantence and friend of mine...show him every hospitality. |
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Post by RitaMarita on Jun 7, 2022 5:39:06 GMT -5
I have a question about father John Derrington ordained by Bishop Patrick Taylor Welcome to the forum! đ What is your question? From what I understand, Taylor is connected with the line of priests and bishops called "Old Catholics" who rejected Vatican I. I had a friend years ago who was a part of them and went to Bishop McCormack, Father Anselm (?), And Bishop Sebastian. My confessor, Father Collins, always said to stay away from them because they were a condemned group even before Vatican II. Hope that doesn't discourage you from asking your question though. đ |
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QUESTION
Jun 7, 2022 5:39:21 GMT -5
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Post by RitaMarita on Jun 7, 2022 5:39:21 GMT -5
This is a new aquantence and friend of mine...show him every hospitality. Okay! đ
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 7, 2022 19:38:54 GMT -5
I have a question about father John Derrington ordained by Bishop Patrick Taylor I think Rita summed up what I would say. Fr. Collins was also a friend of mine, and I trust his judgment which is spot on with this matter. IMO, avoid old Catholic lines. We are living in a day and age where the Church has not given us certainty about particular men ordained through orders outside the Church, so in my opinion, be safe, stay away, snd let the Church settle these matters prior to taking any action. |
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 8, 2022 19:12:59 GMT -5
I have a question about father John Derrington ordained by Bishop Patrick Taylor Welcome to the forum! đ What is your question? From what I understand, Taylor is connected with the line of priests and bishops called "Old Catholics" who rejected Vatican I. I had a friend years ago who was a part of them and went to Bishop McCormack, Father Anselm (?), And Bishop Sebastian. My confessor, Father Collins, always said to stay away from them because they were a condemned group even before Vatican II. Hope that doesn't discourage you from asking your question though. đ Patrick Taylor has long been regarded as a con man. I have spoken personally to several of Lefebvre line sede priests, including Fr. Collins and have done a great deal of research on the matter. My conclusion is that there are too many âauto celaphousâ and schismatic lines in both his ordination and the consecrations in his line to know if a Catholic rite was even used, and most of the people were actually ordaining for non-Catholic churches. The other issue is that many in the line now have died and it is impossible to get clarification. Additionally, I would argue that most of these men have no training or formation and thus no business instructing souls. |
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Caillin
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Post by Caillin on Jun 13, 2022 12:59:22 GMT -5
Since Neal Webster's attempted consecration of Fr. Pfieffer, it's occured to me that competency is a much more significant factor in assessing the validity of orders than I had realized previously. It seems necessary to know what kind of training anyone received before having moral certainty that they performed the form in a valid manner.
In the past, the fact that an ordination was performed under the authorization of the Church would have been enough for moral certainty. No need to dig through documents, pictures, and videos in that case. But in the trad world we live in now, even full documentation with pictures showing a seemingly valid form may not be enough in some cases to be morally certain the essential words were spoken correctly. A judgment needs to be made about the comptency of the minister.
I think the reputation of particular trad groups can provide a morally certain presumption about the competency of any given ordination done within that group, without having to interrogate each one. But in the case of these lesser known, murky lines of priests, it seems much more difficult to make a judgment about their training and competency. And in light of what we saw from Neal Webster, I don't think one can start with a presumption of sufficient training and competency. In his case, how can one presume he was anymore competent in the ordinations he attempted of two priests, than he was in the one consecration that he botched? I think video and/or audio evidence would be required to resolve any doubts about how he performed his two attempted ordinations. Similarly, can it be presumed that any of the bishops in his line had enough training and competency to not botch essential words as he did? This would seem to be the same for Taylor and his lineage.
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Post by Seeker on Jun 14, 2022 17:35:16 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum! đ What is your question? From what I understand, Taylor is connected with the line of priests and bishops called "Old Catholics" who rejected Vatican I. I had a friend years ago who was a part of them and went to Bishop McCormack, Father Anselm (?), And Bishop Sebastian. My confessor, Father Collins, always said to stay away from them because they were a condemned group even before Vatican II. Hope that doesn't discourage you from asking your question though. đ Patrick Taylor has long been regarded as a con man. I have spoken personally to several of Lefebvre line sede priests, including Fr. Collins and have done a great deal of research on the matter. My conclusion is that there are too many âauto celaphousâ and schismatic lines in both his ordination and the consecrations in his line to know if a Catholic rite was even used, and most of the people were actually ordaining for non-Catholic churches. The other issue is that many in the line now have died and it is impossible to get clarification. Additionally, I would argue that most of these men have no training or formation and thus no business instructing souls. +Taylor was conditionally consecrated in the +Dattessen line. +Dattessen was consecrated by Thuc. Why is this never mentioned and just the term "Old Catholic" is the only focus? |
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QUESTION
Jun 15, 2022 17:09:26 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 15, 2022 17:09:26 GMT -5
seeker dont you think this has gotten out of hand...bishops doing dubious consecrations and then those do their own? When does the chaos end? |
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Post by Clotilde on Jun 15, 2022 19:04:04 GMT -5
Patrick Taylor has long been regarded as a con man. I have spoken personally to several of Lefebvre line sede priests, including Fr. Collins and have done a great deal of research on the matter. My conclusion is that there are too many âauto celaphousâ and schismatic lines in both his ordination and the consecrations in his line to know if a Catholic rite was even used, and most of the people were actually ordaining for non-Catholic churches. The other issue is that many in the line now have died and it is impossible to get clarification. Additionally, I would argue that most of these men have no training or formation and thus no business instructing souls. +Taylor was conditionally consecrated in the +Dattessen line. +Dattessen was consecrated by Thuc. Why is this never mentioned and just the term "Old Catholic" is the only focus? It is not just consecrations, ordinations matter too. Getting a Thuc consecration or ordination doesnât solve other lineage problems nor does it absolve these guys from getting their orders from Old Catholics. It also opens up a whole new set of issues such as training and worthiness. Yes it does limit the acceptable lines (clear, few Thuc and Lefebvre mostly) but the ends do not justify the means. |
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QUESTION
Jun 17, 2022 6:30:26 GMT -5
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Post by RitaMarita on Jun 17, 2022 6:30:26 GMT -5
Patrick Taylor has long been regarded as a con man. I have spoken personally to several of Lefebvre line sede priests, including Fr. Collins and have done a great deal of research on the matter. My conclusion is that there are too many âauto celaphousâ and schismatic lines in both his ordination and the consecrations in his line to know if a Catholic rite was even used, and most of the people were actually ordaining for non-Catholic churches. The other issue is that many in the line now have died and it is impossible to get clarification. Additionally, I would argue that most of these men have no training or formation and thus no business instructing souls. +Taylor was conditionally consecrated in the +Dattessen line.  +Dattessen was consecrated by Thuc.  Why is this never mentioned and just the term "Old Catholic" is the only focus? Good to know. I have never heard of this before. So, he cut all ties with the Old Catholics then and tried to get things done better? |
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Post by Seeker on Jun 20, 2022 16:09:11 GMT -5
seeker dont you think this has gotten out of hand...bishops doing dubious consecrations and then those do their own? When does the chaos end? When we have a valid pope? Until then, who is "dubious" and who is not is simply an opinion. Valid is valid is valid. As far as training.. What about that one priest that assists at a certain large chapel in Ohio that has never seen the inside of a seminary? |
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 20, 2022 17:46:20 GMT -5
Catholics have no obligation to request the sacraments from any men who are not sent to them by the Church. If any man appears who is claiming to be a priest, the onus is on him to prove he is validly ordained. If a Catholic for whatever reason chooses to not request the sacraments from an unsent man who claims to be a priest, he is within his rights to do so.
Laypeople are in control in our situation. The traditional priests may or may not accept requests for the sacraments, but it is the laity who must chose to make the request in the first place. If a man states he is a validly ordained priest with orders from the schismatic Old Catholic sect, I would pass on making the request to him for the sacraments. Rome can settle his case when the Church reforms, it's not for us to get into this can of worms.
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Post by Seeker on Jun 20, 2022 18:27:57 GMT -5
Catholics have no obligation to request the sacraments from any men who are not sent to them by the Church. If any man appears who is claiming to be a priest, the onus is on him to prove he is validly ordained. If a Catholic for whatever reason chooses to not request the sacraments from an unsent man who claims to be a priest, he is within his rights to do so. Laypeople are in control in our situation. The traditional priests may or may not accept requests for the sacraments, but it is the laity who must chose to make the request in the first place. If a man states he is a validly ordained priest with orders from the schismatic Old Catholic sect, I would pass on making the request to him for the sacraments. Rome can settle his case when the Church reforms, it's not for us to get into this can of worms. Even if these men who went to the "Old Catholics" (really the Brazilian National Catholics, which is NOT the "Old Catholics" of Utrecht) and then later were conditionally ordained by Catholic bishops, we must still avoid them? Did they catch some sort of spiritual cooties that sticks around forever? What then of the Eastern Catholics, who fairly recently came from the schismatic Orthodox... Shall we avoid them as well? I really want to understand what I should do! |
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